Forum:Re-opening the character appearances template consensus discussion

I think there is a need to revisit the current standards for the appearances template with regard to actors who were credited for making an appearance. Currently we don't accept Appearance template tags for characters who appeared in, and whose actors are credited for, a particular hour if the appearance was recorded beforehand (and includes possible flashbacks). Instead, the standard is to note the appearance in the background & notes section. I'm arguing here in favor of moving the notice down to the Appearances table with an asterisk ''' in only those limited and rare instances where the actor was actually credited for that appearance. '''

Please do not think that I'm doing something new by drawing a line in the sand with regard to what can be linked in the appearances template. I'm simply re-drawing the current line. Currently the line is drawn to permit only those characters who appeared in the real-time episode. I propose to simply redraw the line to now include also those characters who appeared and were credited for it, regardless of whether it was a real-time appearance or not. This is not a major overhaul of policy; my post is quite long only because this is a contentious subject and because I am arguing for a shift in consensus. Consensus is arrived at by the more carefully reasoned decisions, and I think my reasoning here is thorough and persuasive enough to change it. (Since I'm opening a consensus discussion, I will not consider simple votes of support or opposition. Consensus is not a poll, so everyone who wishes to sound off here must proffer legitimate discussion, not ballots.)

My first point is that the current standard of relegating notes to a notes area doesn't suffice for the flexible nature of the show. If 20 straight minutes of a flashback, or 25 straight minutes of recorded footage is ever played, according to our current standard NONE of the characters in those scenes can be listed as having made appearances... in their appearances list. Sure, we didn't see them during the in-universe episode hour, and sure, some or all of them might even be dead characters... but they still made a significant, credited appearance on the show. So all I am proposing is that we list accurately credited (and therefore significant) appearances in the Appearances template with a note to that effect.

In essence, all this proposal calls for is a shift of the note that is above the template to underneath it, and a tagged notice in the box. The appearances box explicitly contains the note function for exactly this purpose.

The second point: remember that the Appearances template is an OOU device. If it was an in-universe listing (which it is not) then everybody who existed throughout the whole day would get a credit for each hour, regardless of whether they appeared on the show. This isn't the case for obvious reasons. Therefore, what we place in the template is arbitrary no matter how you look at it. I'm defending the position that my proposal produces a more sound re-drawing of the line.

What character articles will this definitely affect? Holy crap, what about the slippery slope? Won't we have to credit every single David Palmer posthumous footage?
 * 1) Reed Pollock
 * 2) Jamey Farrell
 * 3) Howard Bern (and so far as I can tell, that's the grand total)
 * 1) There is no danger of a slippery slope. We will never have to link any of the existing posthumous footage and pictures of David Palmer after his death because he was not credited for them.
 * 2) We will still not credit photographs of Teri or anything we've seen thus far following her death
 * 3) We will still not credit any photographed or recorded character if they were not credited

My third point starts with a related topic: sometimes an actor is credited for appearing in an episode where they simply didn't appear (or for non-canonical deleted scenes). This is noted in the appropriate episode guide Dramatis Personae list with a (credit only) notice next to the name. Appropriately, we do not place an appearances link in the template on the character's page for those episodes (that is, to indicate that he was credited even though he didn't appear). That is because, we all agree, the Appearances heading is not a list of credits. It is a list of appearances! Currently we define "appearances" to exclude certain things. I propose we alter our arbitrary definition to another, but more reasonable, definition. Myself, the other active admins, and the wiki's most diligent contributors have been enforcing the old consensus, so this might be hardest for us to consider. Especially if you are in this group, please take the time to read through my proposal.

So in summary, the proposal is that we list all characters who appeared and were credited for their appearance. Please see the second paragraph if you'd like to make a response that can be taken into account. Otherwise, silence is consensus! Here is your forum, folks! – Blue Rook 20:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)talk contribs