Wiki 24:The Situation Room

Main Page Layout Vote
Myself and StBacchus have designed a new main page layout for the wiki. The main differences are the opening paragraph and links at the top and the organisation of the contents section at the bottom. Take a look here. We now need a vote on it so can you please vote either SUPPORT, AGAINST or NEUTRAL giving your reasons for your choice. --24 Administration 17:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * SUPPORT: I think it looks really great! Let's use it. :D --24 Administration 17:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * SUPPORT: That is fantastic! You two did a wonderful job! -Kapoli 18:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Vandals
Looks like I missed another party. Good job Kapoli for getting everything fixed, but whats up with the Pelican Shit stuff. GET NEW MATERIAL!!!--CWY2190 09:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a historical vandal motif. So you see, they aren't unoriginal or lacking brains as you might expect, they're paying homage. --StBacchus 15:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking through Wikipedia's archives, it seems we had the Communism Vandal a while ago as well. --24 Administration 16:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That was the first time I had to deal with a vandal! How exciting!  Really though, I tried to go through all his edits and revert them, and about halfway through I remembered the "rollback" function.  Duh.  I also had to protect that IP's user talk page, because he wouldn't stop posting those penguin photos.  I hope I did everything right! -Kapoli 18:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Problems Viewing Page
When I open any page the google ads cover part of the article where u can't see the words. Is anyone else having this problem? I can only scroll over to see the rest of the article wne I'm not in a edit page.--CWY2190 04:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm having the same problems. The article and edit box are both hidden underneath the Google ads.  I don't know what to do about it. -Kapoli 04:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't worry everyone, I fixed everything using hacking skills. I just had to chloe mediawiki and it was cleaned up in a jiffy.


 * Actually, Angela posted something about it on the main page talk page, apparentally it was a problem with the central wikia, but it looks like It's all been cleared up. - Xtreme680 06:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, what I meant to say was, it's mostly cleaned up. She said it would be taken care of tomorrow. Most of the editing pages look pretty good though. - Xtreme680 06:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Main Page
I've been fiddling around on the sandbox with a possible new style for the top of the main page. It's based on Wikipedia's version but changed to suit our needs. I think that our main page kinda puts people off because it is really two paragraphs of writing at the top. The new version summaries everything into a neat box. Take a look and tell me what you think! Have a look --24 Administration 21:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What exactly is off-putting about the main page? Are you saying it's too long?  I was always worried that there wasn't enough of an introduction on the front.  For the longest time, I found wiki main pages for things like Wikipedia off-putting because you're just kinda thrust into the action, so to speak.  I always found Memory Alpha a lot more friendly because it has a nice little introductory paragraph at the top.  Maybe I'm alone on this. --Proudhug 02:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I agree with you. But there's plenty of room in 24 Administration's design for an intro paragraph. --StBacchus 07:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well the question is then, what essentially needs to be in the opening paragraph? --24 Administration 13:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Lockdown?
I've been recently updating the episode guides for Season 2, but I've gotten to some of the pages that look to be a little more incomplete than usual. When I wrote the page for Day_2_2:00pm-3:00pm, I took down the lockdown notice, only to notice it was back up. I assumed this was because I forgot to write a summary, so I included that and took down the lockdown notice again. As of today, the lockdown notice is back up.

I don't mean to argue, but I just want to know-what elements need to be present for an episode page to be considered in compliance with Wiki 24 standards? Hypnometal 07:29 16 July 2006 (EDT)


 * You're the only person who has edited that page in the past month. I don't see any revision from you where that notice was gone. I suggest using the "Show Preview" button to make sure everything's the way you want it before you save (and also make sure, if you are previewing, that you do hit "Save changes" afterwards). I went ahead and took the notice off, because the page looks done to me.


 * To address your other question, I think having the Summary, Episode Guide, and Dramatis Personae should be enough. There may not be Trivia/Notes/Background Information or Memorable Quotes, but there will always be a plot and a cast. I mean, I hope so. O_o --StBacchus 21:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Wiki 24 NL
The Dutch version of Wiki 24 is a fact! Its name: Wiki 24 NL! I ask everyone who speaks (a little bit) Dutch, to visit it and help me with translate English articles. Adnergje 19:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

New way to do appearances
Hi, everybody. We all love Proudhug's Appearance tables, but have you ever wondered if there might be an easier way to reproduce them? Well, wonder no more! Team Bacchus has brought you A Better Way. Let's say I wanted to do the appearances for Jenny McGill. Here's what I type:



And here's what shows up:

That's it. Make sure you have the right season number after Appearances. Spaces are optional. You don't even have to put the episodes in the right order. See Jack Bauer's appearances for another example. --StBacchus 17:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow! That's really cool! Go Team bacchus! --24 Administration 22:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, StBacchus. I knew there was a way to do this when I created the table, but was too lazy to spend the time working out.  I knew you'd come up with something!  ;) --Proudhug 02:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! Heh, I always work hard when it gives me an opportunity to be lazy later...or is it the other way around? Anyway, it was a pain to do appearances even when it was just a bulleted list. Now it's so easy I'm actually looking for pages without appearances so I can add them in. If only everything could be this simple. ...Oh, I almost forgot!

One more thing
The appearance tables will float really ugly on top of the character sidebar if there isn't enough text on the page to separate them. To avoid this problem, add   after the last bit of text before the Appearance header. I recommend adding that tag even on pages that look fine on your monitor, just to be safe. --StBacchus 07:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

They played the wrong episode
Instead of playing Day 5 3:00pm-4:00pm, they played 3:00 AM - 4:00 AM! I feel bad for everyone who has been spoiled :-) Squall Deckiller 00:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ha ha! I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets confused about the episode titles. --StBacchus 06:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it appears Fox is pulling the Friday night repeats due to low ratings, so they're fast forwarding a bit. And let's try to keep off-topic discussion off-site, please. --Proudhug 08:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Emails
I have no idea what this means, but some lady from the Wall Street Journal contacted me wondering if she could talk to me about vandalism on the wika. I guess my question is, why me, and should I pursue this? I must say I am kind of freaked out by the concept of talking to someone and my personal information being put in a newspaper, so I have removed the picture of myself and just put my school down along with all of my jokes. If someone else wanted to handle it, I'll refer her to another user. Her email is from the wsj, but I don't want to be talking on the phone to some unlegit person. - Xtreme680 05:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Interesting! I'm not a lawyer or a journalist, so take my advice for what it's worth. Probably she wants to talk to you because you're one of the most diligent anti-vandals here, and also one of only a handful of users who can ban others. A real journalist would probably not put any more personal information in a newspaper than you authorize her to, but you shouldn't release your information to anyone if you aren't comfortable doing it. If you aren't sure about her credentials, she should be able to supply you with proof that she's really a journalist with the WSJ, or you could Google her name to see what else she's written. If you'd like to do the interview but don't want to give her your phone number, you can always ask if you can do it over e-mail. Personally, I would do it if I could be sure she was who she claimed to be, but that's just me. You certainly aren't obligated to do anything if you don't want to. --StBacchus 10:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Welcome to the internet, Xtreme680! It's creepy the first time you realize how easy it is for someone to track you down.  I once had someone phone me up at home, interested in an object I'd bought on eBay a couple years before.  I still have no idea how he did it.  I'm not sure what exactly you're worried about, though.  You sound like your worried the person is ligit and your information will be revealed in the paper, and the same time your worried the person isn't ligit.  Let us know how it turns out, either way.  --Proudhug 14:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's definetely both. I've definetely been contacted by unlegit people in the past because of student organizations. And yea, she seems to be legit, when I googled her name it came up as WSJ type of stuff, and her email was from there. I guess I don't mind her using my legal name or anything, I suppose I can just tell her that I don't want her being like "Oh yeah, if you want to call xtreme680, use this, also, the addresses of his family and friends!" He works here! But I'm sure that's silly. But hey, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me. I plan on calling her tomorrow.


 * Also, my guess is that 1, I'm an admin, and 2, I've put email up, which a lot of you haven't, which I guess makes me easiest to contact in a private way. - Xtreme680 06:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Honestly, what is the problem with talking to her? I mean, if she is some stalker lady, is she going to figure out all of your personal information by interviewing you about vandalism? I don't think that it would be a big deal. Just set up an extra e-mail on Yahoo and with fake info, that way she can't trace you. If you're paranoid, go to the library and start a new account there, so she REALLY can't trace you, even if she is Chloe O'Brien. Unless she pulls the library security footage and uploads to Jack's PDA and you're put through face recognition software... But seriously, just do it and enjoy the publicity. It's funny how the Wall Street Journal can't print anything better than vandalism on a 24 fan site.

New Wikia Statistics
Check this out! Wikia is tabulating the statistics for all its little wikis in new and exciting ways. We're doing pretty well for ourselves against the big boys (Wikipedia, Memory Alpha, Wookiepedia). Let's keep up the good work! --StBacchus 14:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sweet Jesus, it's about time they updated that! It used to be updated all the time, then they mysteriously stopped last November.  I'm glad it's all back again!  Thanks for the heads up, StBaccus. --Proudhug 19:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Writing Hole in Season 3?
I've been re-watching Season 3 over the past couple weeks, and tonight I got to Day 3 10:00am-11:00am. For those that forget, this is the episode where Saunders is holding Michelle hostage, and Tony + CTU is negotiating for her release, using Jane Saunders as bait. Half way through the episode, Michelle escapes from Saunders custody, and starts running around looking for a cell signal, and attempting to escape. She grabbed a guard's gun on her way. During the run & hide sequence, there were a couple of instances where Michelle ducked and hid from an approaching Saunders. My big question here is - WHY? She is trained with weapons, we know, as she has killed before. If Saunders dies, the whole day basically ends. And she has a gun, and the upperhand - she knows where the bad guys are, but not vice versa. To me, it would have made much more sense for her to just hid out and kill people as they approached, waiting for backup to arrive. Instead, what we get is the 24 writers having Jack tell her to let herself get "recaptured" so as to allow a few more episodes of cat-and-mouse with the Jane/Michelle switcheroo. Your thoughts? --JPizzle1122 02:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that they did not know yet if Saunders was calling the shots or just a cog in a bigger wheel type thing. Or if the couriers were on orders to release the virus if Saunders died, then that would be a bad thing. BauerJ24 17:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't get me started on Season 3. Also, you've already brought up plot holes with this season before.  Please take note of the top of this page where it says "keep in mind that this is NOT a site for discussion of the show 24 unless it specifically pertains to the creation of this encyclopedia." --Proudhug 03:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I suppose in a nicer way, proudhug is right. I suggest TWOP or the imdb, as I think a few people here also like to frequent those boards. - Xtreme680 04:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep, we sure do! Television Without Pity is the place to go for robust, intelligent discussion. Or for a more relaxed atmosphere, there's the IMDb. --StBacchus 00:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Man, I haven't been to the TWoP forums since the first season. I used to be there religiously during the first season of 24, but back then it was actually possible to read it.  Nowadays you get done reading a thread and there are five new pages of stuff.  I haven't even read the recaps since the third season! O_o  Presently, it's the official Fox.com 24um for me. --Proudhug 00:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm partial to the 24 Insider. It's divided into two sections - spoilers and no spoilers.  Best inside info, great group of people, exceptional moderators and administrators.  They're not accepting new members at the moment, but I'm told that they're reopening registration within a few weeks.  No offense, but I'd stay off IMDb (no moderating, no consideration of grammar/spelling/punctuation, millions of trolls).  Eek! -Kapoli 01:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But obviously, the forum for all of your forum needs is the Something Awful forums. - Xtreme680 03:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I like the lack of moderation at the IMDb, but to each his own. Xtreme680 is right anyhow. ^_~ --StBacchus 14:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Conformity
I think there needs to be a standard of conformity on the site. Most of it is at the standard and look the same, but certain pages such as George Mason have a table for their appearances instead of a list of the episodes. I tried to make the table for season two of Mason and it didn't work out. I liked the table idea because it looked better than a list. It showed all episodes and highlighted the ones that he was in. While it would take more manpower to change every character, it would look better. Also some characters have enough information to have a chart on the side of their picture, but it is all one big paragraph. We need to get all of these and conform them to 24Wikia standards. One Final Note: Links that don't exist. A lot of book characters, even important ones, are not on the site. A fair amount of characters from the show are not on the site. We need to get all of these pages and get them on the site so we are truly a 24 Encyclopedia. --BauerJ24 13:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, if you look a little farther down the page...you'll see that the character tables are a work in progress that we're still putting into all of the character pages. And yeah, there are a lot of pages that don't exist; they just need to be created. If you have access to the books and can make the pages yourself; no one's stopping you. Just remember the proper character page format for a book character. And for people who have DVDs or know what would go on the character page, they can do the other character pages. --Rohrk21 14:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Woah dude, cut us some slack! Wiki 24 is a work in progress, not a finished project.  The Appearances table is a very recent development (check out the thread below) and several of us have been working at plugging it into all of the pages.  It's the exact same situation with the character charts and non-existent links.  It's not that we don't agree with you 100%, because we do.  It's just that things like this take time.  None of us are full-time employed staff at Wiki 24, so we're grateful for as many cooks as we can get in the kitchen.


 * If you haven't already, you may want to check out the Bullpen and add to it the things you've mentioned. We welcome you to the site and hope you can help us out with anything you can. --Proudhug 15:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed! I fixed your table for George Mason, you took out the little areas we put in there to break up the table to stop it from becoming one long list. I don't have the books, so if you do, just start writing. We prefer you to follow the character profile pages, but worse comes to worse I can help with cleaning up so it fits style. Putting the tables on isn't as easy as other major style changes we've made, it will take a little time to get them all up and running. - Xtreme680 17:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Show Preview
I've noticed that some users seem to be making a dozen or so changes to a single page within just minutes. For those of you who don't know, there's a little button beside the "Save page" button known as "Show preview". It is your friend. Please please please preview what you're saving before saving it to make sure that you're making the changes you want to make. It's a very useful tool when editing, and it will cut down on having a chunk of 20 items in the Recent Changes list that are all from the same article.

And I'd also like to remind everyone to SIGN THEIR POSTS. Either put four tildes at the end ( ~ ) or click on the button on the editing toolbar. Thanks. -Kapoli 18:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The Official Magazine
Whilst browsing at my local comic book store the other day so I could buy the new Eternals miniseries, I saw 24: The Official Magazine. I picked up a copy, and it has interviews with cast members as well as other fan things. The reason I bring it up is this. It would be a great source for some of our actors and trivia page, and as an official source, it might be a nice time to consider it as a source of canon. It seems mainly like a secondary source of information, but they do have a Jack bauer Kill count with statistics and other potential sources that could be considered canon and affect pages. Where should this be placed on the canon chart? - Xtreme680 16:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I haven't include The Official Magazine in the canon list for two reasons. The canon list only includes IU sources.  If TOM ever includes 24 comics or stories, this would have to be reconsidered.  And secondly, TOM is riddled with errors.  The first issue made a big deal about how cool it is when Palmer and Bauer met for the first time in person, then proceeded to describe the phone-bomb scene.  Um, this wasn't even the second time they met, it was the third!!  The "Debrief" in issue #2 does mention that people spotted a "deliberate" error in issue #1, but yeah right, whatever.  Despite being called "Official", TOM is really little more than a fanmag.  The "Official" status just means that they get a lot of exclusive interviews with cast and crew and visits to the set and stuff.  None of the creators are actively involved with the publication.  TOM is a good source of OOU trivia, but that's really it, unfortunately. --Proudhug 17:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What the hell are you talking about, the canon list includes only in-universe sources? Does Jack Bauer star in ads for artificial sweetener? Are we or are we not LARPing that we exist inside 24? I'm not being dense on purpose. The use of these expressions really is frying my brain. --StBacchus 17:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, all of the sources on the canon list are in-universe. Check out the first line of the page and you'll see why.  There's no such thing as out-of-universe canon.  That doesn't fit with the definition of the term.


 * While Jack Bauer doesn't star in artificial sweetener commercials (as far as I know), he does star in CalorieMate commercials, and another guy named "Jack Bauer" appeared in a Ford F150 commercial called "The Donation". --Proudhug 17:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You're saying that first sentence is to be taken literally? As in, all the stuff listed with the numbers and the whatnot are "considered to be genuine or official" within the narrative of the television show 24. Is that right? --StBacchus 18:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I had to convince Mr. Bacchus that I'm not being willfully obtuse about this, so I'm posting again. You mean that the magazine's perspective is not in-universe, meaning it has no narrative content. If there's no narrative content, it doesn't need to fit into the canon hierarchy, because the facts are either true or they aren't. Now have I got it? --StBacchus 23:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I think you've got it now. Man, it's frustrating not being able to get a point across.  For both of us.  O_o  But yeah, my point was that since the magazine isn't an actual story, there's no reason for it to be included in the canon heirarchy. --Proudhug 01:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There's a Mr. Bacchus? Anyway, yeah, I see Proudhug's point, its only confusing if it's a narrative. Going back to the comic book store today (shut up, miss Xtreme went back home for summer) I can see that the same company is churning shit like this out for anything with a solid fanbase, including Lost. Besides that, there really isn't that much information in there anyway. They don't list the episodes or sources at all for a few of their claims, which makes me distrustful. It is nice for some of the actor pages and trivia however. - Xtreme680 00:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's cool that there is an official magazine, but to be honest, you and I could write a way better publication. Well, we don't have the pull with celebrities like they do, but for all of the rest of it, we'd crush them.  The mag actually reminds me a lot of 24 Inside.  The host of that show has no clue.  She's just some drooling fan who can't remember more than three things about any previous season.


 * On a side note, I suspect the editors of the magazine have visited our site. The first issue has a profile of Kim Bauer and in it it mentions her previous boyfriend Vincent O'Brien.  Now, Vincent's last name came from Findings at CTU and nowhere else.  Vincent was also one of the first articles here at Wiki 24.  For whatever reason, I doubt the editors have read that book, so I figure they got it from us!  Makes ya wonder, anyway. --Proudhug 01:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The way I see it, if you want to get your information about 24 from the magazine then go ahead as long as it actually happened in the show/book/comic etc. That's still from the show so it doesn't matter and you can just give a source as the episode it appeared in and not the magazine. Actor pages are OOU anyway so any trivia or whatever wouldn't be subject to our canon policy.

PS A page for the magazine on the wiki would be nice if anyone who has the magazine would be willing to create one. --24 Administration 17:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Appearances?
OK, so looking at all of these character pages, what exactly counts as an appearance? Obviously, if they're seen, heard, and credited, that's one thing. But there are other instances, such as:
 * a character is killed at XX:59 and their body is seen at the beginning of the next episode (Ryan Chappelle, Edgar Stiles)
 * a character's voice is heard, but the character themselves is not seen (I can't recall an exact instance, but I know it's been there) -- whether their role is credited in the episode or not
 * a character is not seen or heard but is still credited (Jamey Farrell in Day 1 4:00am-5:00am)

There are other questionable instances, but this is just what I've noticed. --Rohrk21 21:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been (slowly) going through and verifying/completing all of the character appearances, and these are the rules I've been going by:


 * If they're seen and/or heard in the episode, it's listed as an appearance, even if the appearance is a recording of a previous episode or of an earlier unseen event such as Carl's voice on Keith's tape, or Jamey's murder.
 * Uncredited appearances count as appearances, such as Chappelle and Edgar's posthumous ones.
 * Previouslies don't count as appearances.
 * Photos of people don't count as appearances. For example, Kyle Farrell's only "appearances", or Jonathan Wallace and Nina Myers in Season 2 before they appeared in the flesh.
 * If a character is credited but not seen or heard, such as Jamey or Teddy Hanlin, this is considered an error and not listed as an appearance.


 * If you think of any other questionable situations, let me know. --Proudhug 21:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * One question though - does Gordon's severed head count as an appearance? --JPizzle1122 23:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think headshots count. --Zhoul 01:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, good questionable example! I say yeah, why not include it?  Put it on the list and add "(severed head only)" to it.  It's no different from Nina's and Edgar's corpses, in my opinion.  --Proudhug 18:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's another thing...is there any particular reason why, for the majority of characters with appearances in Season 1, it simply says the time for most episodes (i.e. Day 1 2:00am-3:00am simply says 2:00am-3:00am, but in every episode from Day 1 6:00pm-7:00pm and on, it includes the words "Day 1"? (ex. Andre Drazen, Rick Allen, Sherry Palmer, to name a few) --Rohrk21 01:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's nothing really important. I've just been kinda changing them as I go and using the unchanged ones as a marker for where I am.  Check out Rick's Talk page. --Proudhug 01:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, check out the new table idea i've come up with in the Sandbox for character appearances and let me know what you think here in the Situation Room. --Proudhug 02:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me be the first to say I think it looks awesome. It doesn't need tarting up. The non-links could be greyed out, but even that isn't necessary. Well done!

Oh, what heading should we use for the Declassified novels? If you want to make the chronology clear, it should be something like "Before Day 1" or something, right? --StBacchus 06:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Something like that, yeah. I updated the page with a full example of what I was thinking an appearances section would look like.  Comic/novel/game appearances are listed chronologically, or simply omitted when the character didn't appear.  So far Findings at CTU is the only "misfit" novel, since it doesn't take place before Season 1.  Of course, we could run into further problems if Declassified novels or a new series of novels come out that don't take place between One Shot and Day 1. --Proudhug 14:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a question. Lots of places have headings like "Before Day 4" or something to that extent. Should we have after day 3, or before day 4? - Xtreme680 16:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'd meant to address this. As one of my "eventual" Consistency Projects, I plan to sort all this out. Basically, my thoughts are this:


 * Events seen on screen (or on paper) are detailed under the heading for that Day; "Day 1", "Day 5", "One Shot", "Trojan Horse", etc.
 * Events detailing the character's life before they appeared on the show (or book) are put under a heading beginning with "Before". If the character's first chronological appearance is in Day 1, their background information appears under "Before Day 1", if they first appeared in Day 3, it's "Before Day 3", if they first appeared in The Game, it's "Before The Game", etc.
 * All other information about the character's life events appear in "After" headings. For stuff that happened between a character's appearances in Days 1 and 2, it's "After Day 1" for events between their appearances in Day 2 and Day 5, it's "After Day 2".
 * Subheadings shouldn't be needed at all, but if someone sees a usefulness to them, feel free to mention it.

So in summation, "Before" is only used for the first heading (if applicable), otherwise "After" is always used to describe events that take place between Days. --Proudhug 16:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm starting to plug the chart into pages. I started with Jack and came across a couple situations (good thing we're in the situation room *wink wink*). I was debating if it's worth it to even put all this stuff up for Jack, since he's in everything. But then I realized he's not in everything. Jack doesn't appear in Conspiracy so it is worthwhile to list what he does appear in.

The other thing is that I've included the Prequels in the charts, but it's entirely possible that at some point in the future stories will be told that take place between the prequels and the premieres. If that happens, we'll just move them from the chart to "Before Day 4" and "Before Day 5" of course. But since the Prequels don't take place during one day, rather many over months, it's possible that future stories will take place during a Prequel. Currently, Conspiracy already takes place during Day 4, which is a bit of a problem. Ah well, it really doesn't matter a whole lot as long as they're all listed, I guess. Besides, we'll cross that bridge when if we get to it, I guess. I just like to worry myself into oblivion. --Proudhug 17:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, I had a thought. Right now, we've got two headings for each day that a character appeared in - one for recounting what happened to them that day, and a second under "Appearances." How about listing the appearances for each day under the first header, rather than in a separate header? --StBacchus 18:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I hadn't thought of this. It would reduce reduncancy of the headings, for sure, but I don't think it would look that good.  I like the idea of all of the narrative being together and not being interrupted by a chart of appearances. --Proudhug 04:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The only thing about that table is that it's best made for characters with a decent amount of appearances. Like, if you've got someone like George Mason, who has a good number of episodes in both of his seasons, it's perfect. But then there's the other two sides: if you've got, say, David Palmer, who appeared in every episode of the first three seasons, or Paul Wilson, who has one appearance, wouldn't it be easier to put "David Palmer has appeared in evey episode of Season 1" or just put "11:00pm-12:00am" for Paul Wilson's appearances?

Not to take anything away from the table; it looks great, and for the David Palmer-types, that would be great to also provide a link to their episodes instead of just saying that they were in all of them.

Anyways...I tried to put in the last 4 seasons for Palmer and Tony Almeida, but Season 5 seems to clash with the "Preceded/Succeded by" bars at the bottom of the page. Any solutions? We could put appearances before things like Background Information and Notes so that wouldn't be a problem, but if you've got a solution, feel free to tell me. --Rohrk21 19:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the chart looks nice even for one-off characters. The more I look at it, the more I really like it.  It adds a visual representation of when the character appeared.  Looking at a character's single appearances in Day 3 5:00am-6:00am, you have to stop and think what hour the season started at and then count off how far into it 5am-6am was.  With the chart, you quickly glance at it and see immediately at what point the character appeared in the season.  This works nicely for both types of characters and everyone in between.


 * As for the succession chart interference, does adding an extra space or two help? What if we made a "Succession table(s)" heading or something? --Proudhug 04:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the chart is sweet. I really enjoy it. I say we list it in the appearances section only, otherwise it will look ugly as sin. - Xtreme680 06:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, the chart's up and on a lot of pages. I've got the thing typed up; should there be a link to it in the bullpen? --Rohrk21 20:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

NYTimes Plug
Hey guys, you got really lucky being Featured Wikia this month, and got a plug in the New York times. Just an FYI. -- LordTBT 22:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC) from Redwall


 * Yeah, someone pointed that out. It's pretty cool. --Proudhug 22:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Unbanned IP Address
I notice that 152.163.100.14 was unblocked with a comment that the user had never made any contributions and was blocked by mistake. If you look at the bottom of this page, that IP was involved with vandalism on this site... something I pointed out and something that 24 Administration verified. Just FYI. -Kapoli 03:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking at his contributions page, here I don't see any signs of them ever contributing to the wika. You can look at the block log and see the blocking history, however. If he did vandalize a page, it would be odd, since the records of contributions stay for a LONG ass time, dating back to the creation of the wika. I just felt it was kind of odd that he was banned, considering we don't even have a record of him being here. My impression was that either you or 24 administration made a mistake in the typing, since the records are usually right. But if you want, I trust you and will take your word for it. I'm going to go through the main page, david palmer page, and chloe page to see if I can't find the changes - Xtreme680 07:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Is it just my computer, or do Jack and Palmer's histories both only go back to May 14? There's also a brief Q&A on 24 Administration's talk page about this IP.  -Kapoli 08:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

No they do, I checked as well, it's something with moving pages and the history being moved as well, I believe it's my fault because I did the moves manually (I copied and pasted from the moved page, and then changed that into a redirect) rather than moving the redirected page back, losing some of the page history. But I could be wrong there. However, I remember this user as being blank of contributions for a long while, and banned users edits are still recorded, for contributions. - Xtreme680 08:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's weird. I was looking over the block logs, and apparently 72.135.33.31 has no contributions either, but that's the person who was banned for "vandalizing" Rachel Brenner's talk page.... then the same IP was later unblocked.


 * I'm still positive that 152.163.100.14 was part of the vandalism. Rachel Brenner's talk page was deleted, so maybe that's why 72.135.33.31's contribution list is blank.  I seem to remember that 152.163.100.14's vandalized pages were deleted as well.  Plus, the IP number is right in the range of the other vandals that day.  I'm confident that the blocking wasn't a coincidence or typo, but I suppose we can just leave him or her unblocked and if they return, you can block them then. -Kapoli 03:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

NY Times
By the way, congratulations on your mention in the NY Times! -- Scott (talk ) 01:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Holy friggin' crap! That's awesome!  Thanks for pointing that out! --Proudhug 01:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I never would have noticed that unless you pointed it out. Thanks a lot! - 12.216.103.51 02:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Woah! Out of what must be 100's of wiki's, ours was chosen as an example over all of them! --24 Administration 15:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I figured we'd be mentioned in a list of other MediaWiki projects, but it was just us! I'm sure it's just because we're the Featured Wikia this month, but that's still really cool. --Proudhug 17:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Parody/References
Hey all. Do you folks plan on having a category or an article with descriptions of parodies/spoofs/references from other shows and pop culture? I know MAD magazine has featured a spoof and Late Night with Conan O'Brien has their own version of 24. Over at the Muppet Wiki, we've got articles on the Sesame Street spoof 24 and a Jack Bauer Muppet. Any thoughts one where these links would be appropriate? -- Scott (talk ) 00:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Currently, we try to avoid information on things that don't directly relate to 24, but there may be a place for these types of things somewhere, I don't know. Perhaps in some sort of Trivia section or something.  I'm personally only interested in the 24 canon itself, but if there's enough demand for things like parodies and references people will probably find somewhere to put them. --Proudhug 01:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's cool. If you ever do come up with such a category, you know where to find us. -- Scott (talk ) 01:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Memory Alpha has one large page devoted to it, we could possibly do it like they do. - Xtreme680 02:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Linking to Research Files & Editing Tips
General announcement: if, for any reason, you would like to link to our explanation of one of the Research Files, you can do it now. It works the same way as linking to a page's header. You just add a pound sign and the header name to the page link.

It looks like this:  Go  (the |Go part is optional; the bit after the pipe controls how the link displays on the page). The point was to create a table of contents for the page, but it might come in handy at other times. For instance, if you've ever wanted to write, "Alan Milliken suffered from angina" or "Goddammit, when did anybody ever mention Go on 24?" now you can!

For more editing techniques, see Help:Editing, which contains (almost) everything I know about wiki markup. --StBacchus 13:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Set Date?
I think we should set a specific date to which the seasons happened or make a stronger policy on these. Many pages that I have read set the seasons on impossible dates, such as Day Five being in 2009? Maybe if the whole Wikia set April, 2001 being the date of Day One, we could all set dates for the seasons that would be pretty close to the actual times. This way, we could sort of have an idea when we compare the seasons and really acknowledge how much time has passed. Or, make a no-date policy whatsoever and delete it from every page containing a season-related date. I like the first idea because the second one would take manpower and be tedious work. BauerJ24 21:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think everyone is working from the assumption that Day 1 was set before the 2004 Presidential Elections. We've been able to work out further dates from there. I personally think we should have a no dates policy. --24 Administration 21:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I've been assuming 2000 and Proudhug's worked out 2002. ^_^ Which is exactly why I agree with 24 Administration that dates extrapolated from given dates should be confined to the Timeline page. But check it out: there are some dates that were given in the FaCTU book. If you see a year corresponding to a season, that's imaginary. I've been changing those, too. If you're unsure, it might be a good idea to ask on the Talk page first. --StBacchus 23:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Proudhug's head might explode when he sees this :-) We've been discussing the timeline up, down, and all around this wiki.  Check out the Timeline Talk Page, the faCTU Talk Page, and the Situation Room archives to see how the conversations have gone thus far.  Basically, the timeline is the major project that Proudhug is working on at the moment, and when he's finished compiling his information, he's going to incorporate part of it to the relevant parts of the Wiki.  The best thing to do right now is ignore the dates that you see floating around and not add any additional dates until Proudhug drops the hammer and posts his timeline.  Because you're right, BauerJ24, the dates as they are now are a problem.  --Kapoli 21:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, Proudhug will not like people adding artificial dates to the site. Even when he posts his timeline, it will still not be official.  If you see any pages that use specific dates, please change them.  For example, I recently changed John Keeler's page from saying "he was President during 2008" to saying "he was President during Day 4".  Until the producers or Fox release an official timeline, dates and years shouldn't be used on the site, as 24 Adminstration said above. --Zhoul 22:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)  p.s. IMHO.

The Proudhug wills it, and it will be so. I've never understood the date policy, but it's his baby boy. To argue against it would be like telling him Santa doesn't exist. :) - Xtreme680 22:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No comment. :-| --Proudhug 03:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Santa doesn't exist?!?!?! Didn't we agree - no spoilers? -Kapoli 22:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, there is a Santa Claus, it's just pronounced "San Claus". --Proudhug 08:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

While it would not be a certain date, all of 24Wikia would use this date and it would be easier for people to understand that Jack has gone through seven and a half years, because it is not in a parallel universe, it is tied to our calendar and easier to comprehend. But the fact arises that as we progress, unless we set a 90's date, seasons will exist in the future. If the start date was April of 2000, Day Five occured/will occur in October of 2007.


 * They do exist in the future. Even if we assume Day 1 happened in October 2001, more time has passed between days (in the narrative) than between seasons (in real life). For the moment, we could replace what's on the Timeline page right now with something that actually reflects the relative amount of time passing. That would eventually be replaced with Proudhug's timeline, unless he doesn't want to share, but at least it wouldn't confuse people. I will do it tonight if no one else wants to. --StBacchus 23:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

In a week or so, I'd plan on starting to add some of the actual given dates into the timeline section. I'm probably going to clear out / revamp most of what's currently there.

As an interesting note, I noticed another blatant reference to the date today. Unfortunately, it contradicts my "April 23rd" setting for Day 1. In Day 1 6:00pm-7:00pm when Mason takes Jack's phone from him to prevent Nina from telling him about the attack on the safe house, the screen on the phone says "Mar 19 02: Tue 4:24pm". Looks like Jack needs to adjust for Daylight Saving Time... a couple times. --Proudhug 04:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Poor Rachel
Poor Rachel Eden Brenner. Today she decided it would be cool to google her own name. On the first page of search results she found a little website called Wiki 24. Thinking this was pretty cool, she decided to post on the site for fun. Realizing it would be wrong to deface the actual Rachel Brenner page, she posted a comment on the Talk page about the coincidence and put her email address up to see if she got any responses. Unfortunately, the people of Wiki 24 weren't very happy to see her and called her a liar and made fun of her. Next thing she knew she was banned from ever posting on Wiki 24 again. The end.

Bye bye, Rachel. We'll miss you. Don't worry not every website out there is as hostile and skeptical of your intentions. --Proudhug 04:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, farewell Rachel. Your post was eerily similiar to about a dozen other posts I've seen on other wikis, where someone "googles their name and posts their email address". Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out. -Kapoli 04:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * And eerily her email address was somewhat similar to lemonparty, a shock image on the internet commonly used by vandals and trolls, and was not similar to ANY email address I've ever seen. I think I have been very fair in my bannings. If that was all it turned out to be, she will see she has new messages, and see what I wrote. She will still be able to post on her talk page. If she truly has stumbled upon it and wants to contribute, she can dispute it there, I will unblock her, and I will apologize for the mixup. I assume you made me an administrator because you trusted me to make calls like this. As far as I can tell, we have been very welcome to newcomers. It's not like I have been contributing for years, and we've had an influx of new users who I believe we have welcomed with open arms and in friendly ways, including Lover, Warthog demon, JPizzle1122, and BauerJ24, among others. Not all vandals move pages to things like "Jack Bauer fucked a donkey". Some think subtle changes are cute, and are harder to detect. Like I said, I've been fair, I've assumed good faith, but obvious vandalism, not on my watch. I find it hard to believe that this would happen. I google myself all the time and don't start adding comments about how I share the same name. But that's mainly because depending on which name I use, I just get pages to Jewish law firms or sports stars. - Xtreme680 05:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Next time, she'll know better. If she wants to vandalize, she needs to post profanity and put it onto a main article, not a Talk page. That way she'll only get a one-day suspension, instead of infinite. I hate people who vandalize Talk pages, especially with things like email addresses and greetings. It just burns my apple. --Proudhug 05:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Eh, I think the banning was 100% fair. It's better to be proactive about these things... I'd rather not wait until the shizz hits the fan, I'd rather get 'em early. -Kapoli 05:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing more annoying than vandalizing the talk page. If I wasn't sure it was vandalism, it was 1 day. I was sure. Vandalizing a talk page is still vandalism. It was not a greeting. It was disguised vandalism. - Xtreme680 05:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Fine. You win. Nothing that can't be fixed. - Xtreme680 06:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Season 6 and spoilers
Howard Gordon talked to the New York Post in an article today and had some things to say about what we can expect from Season 6. When is it okay to start putting up information, espically dealing with cast, crew, plot, etc? - Willo 68.51.105.170 19:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * January 2007. Wiki 24 has a no spoiler policy, so putting information about the cast or plot of Season 6 is inappropriate... crew, maybe not so much.  The main page has a News section for the future of the show, but it's only for spoiler-free information.  It may be possible to put some of Gordon's information there. --Proudhug 19:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think there should be a discussion about this. While I don't disagree that there should be no episodic spoilers before they air, I don't necessarly think we should approach the seasons this way. I don't think we should have specific spoilers (ie. Palmer and Michelle's deaths in the premire this year), but we could have general information (ie. "Jack Bauer is forced out of hiding and must deal with a new threat and his faked death.") I think that information is something that will actually help (rather than hinder) a viewers experence entering a season, as well as having cast information. But maybe that's just me. - Willo 68.51.105.170 19:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean by "help viewers." What exactly is helpful about posting cast or plot information about next season?  And how would it even pertain to our site?  Wiki 24 is a spoiler-free encyclopedia of facts about 24.  It's not a news source, a spoiler source, a messageboard, or an effort to recruit new viewers.  We decided against posting cast/crew and vague synopses of episodes before they aired.  Whether or not it's for the next week's episode or next January's episode makes no difference.  Even your "general" information about Jack's return is a spoiler. --Proudhug 20:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with proudhug, there's no reason to have any of this stuff. Maybe an airdate is good, but everything else potentially spoils the season. I prefer to see it happen when it happens. - Xtreme680 23:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * All I'll say is this (and from a neutral, eneyclopedic perspective and opinion): always have an encyclopedic page for everything that's been announced, including future projects. Squall Deckiller 03:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we should make a special section for spoilers only. That way, the people that want to see spoilers can access it easily and the people that don't want to see any spoilers don't have to see any spoilers to get any information. In the section, we could have a few levels of spoilers, like TV Guide spoiler level, where they briefly outline the episode. Example: (Penultimate Episode, S5) Aboard the Natalia, Henderson attempts to shut the weapons system down. Jack goes after the President. This would make it easier for everyone to read the amount of spoilers that they want to read.

I'm sorry but I'm afraid our stance on spoilers is pretty much set in stone at this point. Our admins have to be able to monitor the entirity of Wiki 24 and if they chose to be spoiler-free, they wouldn't be able to do this with a spoiler section. There are plenty of websites out there for spoilers. Wiki 24 isn't currently one of them. --Proudhug 16:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Is that why we don't have spoilers? Because that isn't really a good reason. I'm torn on the inclusion of them myself, but I think it should be discussed, not dismissed out of hand. --StBacchus 20:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course this isn't the only reason, but it's a damn good one, IMO. Wiki 24 doesn't want to ruin anyone's viewing experience, if at all possible. I, like Xtreme680, prefer to see it when it happens. Besides, any information about upcoming episodes is considered rumor, especially this early in the game, and rumor and speculation aren't thing that normally belong in an encyclopedia. I'm curious to hear people's opinions on this, but considering we haven't had too much discussion on it at this point, I assume most people agree with the present policy. --Proudhug 20:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll go ahead and admit that I'm a spoiler whore. I read them because I can't stop myself, but I don't think they belong here.  I feel like an encyclopedia should be documenting the facts... meaning we should focus on what's happened on the show, not what we read/heard is happening down the road.  I think that when this site mentions 'spoilers', it means that, if you haven't seen Season 1, don't read Nina Myers' page, because you're gonna get spoiled.  -Kapoli 22:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Kapoli, that's a fine point, although I don't really see why we couldn't or shouldn't have a dedicated spoiler page. People seem to want it, and as long as the spoilers are contained there and clearly marked as speculation and so on, I see no reason not to have it. Proudhug, ruining the fun of the admins not a good reason to ban spoilers because the correct answer is more administrators. What about that, anyway? There are still two nominations on the table. --StBacchus 23:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If people wanted to have 1 designated page, I'd go with that, but I don't think it would work.


 * I'm thinking of the President Logan twist... I can totally see us posting that kind of information on a designated page for spoilers, and then someone coming along and posting on Logan's page, "In an upcoming episode, it will be revealed that President Logan is working with Christopher Henderson and the terrorists." There's a chance that people who don't want spoilers (like Proudhug or Xtreme) would see that information before someone else had a chance to remove it.  Then I'd feel bad that something that awesomely jaw-dropping was ruined for someone who didn't want to know about it.  While I personally love/enjoy/obsess over spoilers, I don't like ruining the show for others, and I can't think of a way to contain the information to one page.  -Kapoli 00:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You beat me to it, Kapoli. This is the exact reason. If we allow some spoilers in specific areas, people will see this and, without reading or knowing the rules, will assume spoilers can go anywhere on the site. Unfortunately I can't "rollback" my memory. ;-) --Proudhug 01:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry for ruining the Logan twist just then. ;-) -Kapoli 01:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I despise spoilers, but I don't really see this big demand for them. I hate looking at them, and I don't think they belong in an encyclopedia at all. If someone wants a listing of 24 spoiler sites, then I'll look them up and we can link from here or something, but I really just despise the idea in general. If there is a big demand for them that I'm not seeing, I guess I could work around them, but if I had to pick one word to describe my feelings for spoilers, it would be hatred. - Xtreme680 03:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Haha, now tell us how you really feel. ^_~ You're right that there isn't exactly a teeming horde demanding spoilers, but it keeps coming up. People will keep asking until either the show ends or we have a well-thought-out policy on the subject.

As of right now, the policy does provide for the inclusion of properly marked spoilers. If we had a page for spoilers, I think most people would limit the spoilers to it, out of common sense (you know, the same thing that's keeping them from posting spoilers now). However, the spoiler page could also include instructions not to spread the spoilers elsewhere on the site. Then that rule would be in a place where people who read spoilers would be likely to look, which, again, is more than we have right now.

Honestly, I don't care whether or not we decide to include spoilers. I also have suggestions for what to do in case we, all of us, decide to have none whatsoever. What I want is for our rules to be sensible, fair, and clearly stated. That will cut down on the administrative overhead of deleting and reverting people's good-faith mistakes. --StBacchus 07:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that we should have a section for spoilers. I read spoilers (bad habit, DONT EVER START!) and above, Kapoli said that she reads spoilers. That way, if you make a few people administrators that don't mind reading spoilers, clearly mark a section for spoilers, and make it blatantly obvious that if you post spoilers outside the page dedicated to it, you will be banned, then it won't be a problem for people that DO want to read spoilers. We could even put a "lock-down" type thing at the top of the page showing that if you were re-directed to that page, you know it is a spoiler. That way, nobody can complain if they read a spoiler because it is shown all too well.

Featured Article template
Unless anyone has a major problem with me doing so, I'm going to move all but the current Featured Article template from the top of the pages to the Talk pages. It's very obtrusive having it plastered across the top like that. --Proudhug 15:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Haha, just kidding.  I thought about bringing that up once upon a time, but decided against it.  It's on the bottom of some pages too, I think. -Kapoli 15:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea. That's how wikipedia rolls, and it looks much nicer. - Xtreme680 17:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm proberbly tired but I don't get it lol. What do you want to do? --24 Administration 21:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I've moved all of the templates except the current one to the talk page, rather than the article proper. This is the way Wikipedia does it and it makes it unobtrusive. I also added them all to the Featured Articles category, so it's more organized. --Proudhug 21:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Wanted Pages
Occasionally I'll go through the Wanted Pages and look for stuff that appears wanted but isn't really wanted, like a link for "Jak Bauer". Obviously, that was misspelled, so I'll trace the link back and fix the misspelling to remove that item from the Wanted Pages list.

I've come across a few things that have no pages linked to them, despite saying there's 1 link... like Talk:Audio recordingSHIT! I don't understand how those pages end up there. I guess it might not be really important, but I'm curious about it. Anybody know what's up? -Kapoli 00:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's really bizarre. I have no idea what to say, aside from it could just be a software error, much like the "Below are the last 50 changes in the last 7 days, as of $3" message at the top of the Latest Intel page.  --Proudhug 01:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It might be a vandel's page which has since been deleted or renamed. --24 Administration 09:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Well that's no good. Any way to remove those? -Kapoli 10:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's what I'm doing now. Those pages should be redirected, and I'm trying to delete all of the unnecessary redirects that we have (which is a lot). Not the useful ones we use all the time, but vandalism, uncommon misspellings, page names no one would ever search for and have no links, things of that nature. - Xtreme680 01:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, so all of those pages on the "Wanted Pages" list that say (1 link) but actually have no links (like Talk:David Palmer covered in pelican shit) will be gone? Sweet! -Kapoli 01:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

That's the hope - Xtreme680 01:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

So I made a list of those pages on the AfD page. They originally had no links to them, but now technically they have 1 link.... but can we get rid of them? That'd be super. -Kapoli 10:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Memorable quotes
What do you guys think about keeping memorable quotes strictly on the episode pages and eliminating them from character pages? This'll reduce clutter and unnecessary redundancy. A character like Jack Bauer who's been on the show for years will have dozens of memorable quotes and it's a pain having to scroll through them all. --Proudhug 21:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know about the rest of you, but I remember quotes by who said them, not when. Not to mention that dialogue is a major source of characterization. Maybe we could compromise. Multi-speaker quotes can go on the episode pages and single-speaker quotes on the pages of whoever said them. Jack will still have dozens, though. Maybe he could have his own quotes page. --StBacchus 21:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you think some people come to Wiki 24 to find quotes? That seems a little odd to me, but it's possible I suppose. Quotes are basically excerpts from episodes (or novels, comics, etc.), so it makes more sense to me to have them on those pages. I agree that most people will sooner remember who said a quote rather than when it was said, but a list episodes in which the character appeared is available to search. --Proudhug 22:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I came to Wiki 24 to find quotes. It seems like an innocent enough thing to do. On The OC Wikia, for a mainly dialogue based show, I list a few quotes on the page and then provide a link to a page containing all the notable quotes. Maybe this would work? I really don't it's that much trouble, most characters have the menu bar, which helps jump to the section you want to read, and its not hard to click, hold, and drag to speed things up. - Xtreme680 23:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that we can be more selective about the quotes we put on character pages. We need to determine if a quote is better known for a character or an episode. For example, "I'm so sorry..." or "the only reason you're conscience..." would be on both, but "Right here, right now you are going to face justice" doesn't really define Jack Bauer, though it does define the episode. I think we should be pickier as to what goes on character pages. Not every episodic quote should be on the character pages. - Willo 68.51.105.170 02:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm torn on what to do. I definitely like the memorable quotes on the character pages and episode pages, so I kinda like what Willo proposed. Some of the quotes don't make sense or aren't as "memorable" out of the context of the episode, so those quotes should remain on the memorable quotes section of the episode pages. But I do remember quotes based on the person, rather than the episode, so I definitely want to leave them on the character pages, too. We already have so much redundancy on this site, I don't think keeping some of the quotes on the character pages will hurt. -Kapoli 03:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I like Willo's idea, too. It makes sense to me that a quote would be placed on the episode page when it's more important to the episode and the character page when it's more important to the character. I do think some redundancy is fine, though. We don't have a master list of quotes, nor is it very easy to search for them, so putting them where people can find them is key. I also like Xtreme680's idea. Not every character would need a separate quotes page, but I think his format would work very nicely for characters like Jack who have a lot. --StBacchus 07:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

'''The following is another unpopular rant by Proudhug. Please enjoy.'''

Okay guys, this is really starting to get nuts. It seems that 90% of all the edits anymore are people adding "memorable quotes". We even have three pages that are specifically reserved for memorable quotes! Is all of this really necessary? Where should we draw the line with how much to include? If Joe Username decides that every single line of episode 27 is memorable, is it alright for him to upload an entire episode transcript, not only to the episode page, but to each individual character page of every single person in the episode?? And who decides what's "memorable", anyway? If I think Jack saying "Hi, Kate" is memorable, but no one else does, is it okay for me to add it to the site? We should probably change the heading to "Quotes" or "Select Quotes" or something. As Zhoul commented to me off-site, the word Memorable screams "F4N SITE!!!" And that's what it's starting to look like with all of these quotes. I'm okay with the specific pages for Jack and some other main characters, but I'm still of the mindset that these belong solely on the episode pages, which is where they came from. And that they should be kept to a minimum. --Proudhug 22:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

'''This ends the latest Proudhug rant. Thank you for your time.'''


 * Well, I have noticed a few NEW users who are focusing on memorable quotes, but I don't think that's a problem. I appreciate the help that they're contributing, and I haven't seen any quotes added so far that I think are "unworthy" of being on the page.  Plus, we need NEW users, and I'm not going to risk chasing them off by barking at them that their contributions and edits are not what they should be.


 * As for keeping the quotes to a minimum - aren't we trying to be a comprehensive encyclopedia? Aren't we trying to be the go-to site for everything 24?  Who's to say that people don't come here looking for quotes?!  I've referred at least a dozen people on both IMDb and the 24Insider to this site when they're looking for a quote or appearance.  We don't know why people come here, we don't know what they're using it for, we don't know what they're interested in.  I don't see a downside to including too much information - the only problem I can see with this site is limiting the amount of information we have.


 * If you, or Zhoul for that matter, don't like or don't want to help with the Memorable Quotes, then don't read 'em or don't contribute to them. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm getting REALLY tired of defending everything on this site that you don't like.  As an editor, I agree with you on some issues, but as a 24 fan, I'd like this site to have as much information as possible.  Are there parts of this site that I don't like and don't want here?  Yeah!  Should we keep them for the sake of completeness even though I think they're unnecessary?  Absolutely!  It's not about what one or two people think belong here.... this is a community effort and all of our opinions carry equal weight.  We're getting dangerously close to alienating new editors and editors who have been around for awhile, and let's face it, two or three people can't handle this site on their own. --Kapoli 22:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, since my name has risen to the top of Proudhug's pudding like a piece of juicy tapioca, I might as well reply. While I haven't personally observed the overwhelming influx of quotes that he has, I can certainly comment on their semantic usage.  Despite the obvious fan appeal to having Memorable Quotes, is there really a place for them in an unbiased, objective encyclopedia setting?  Definitely, the word "memorable" insinuates fan subjectivity, as Proudhug reinforced with my (*nudge* memorable *wink*) quote above.  Memorable by whom?  Can a computer algorithm decide what's memorable?  Probably not, but an encyclopedia in its rawest form should be able to be computer-generated given the stance of neutrality.  It's fact-based only.  "Random Quotes", yes.  "Memorable Quotes", no.  Consider the following made-up quotes.  There is no neutral discernment between:
 * 1) Jack: "Are we there yet?" Tony: "Hold on, just a minute longer."
 * 2) Jack: "Damnit Tony, why aren't we there yet?!" Tony: "Don't you have a beanstalk to climb?  Piss off!"
 * However, clearly #2 is more colorful, and thus "memorable" by human standards.


 * There seems to be a general web of subjectivity here that needs to be addressed once and for all. Should any, some, or none at all be allowed on the site?  Given that it's first and foremost an encyclopedia, I should say none.  Yet we still see examples seeping through, like these Memorable Quotes, or the Status indicator on Character Sidebars (though that has been tailored somewhat objectively though not satisfyingly enough to me -- more on a possible revamp to this later).  I don't know as if there's a clear-cut solution at the moment, but these so-called "rants" (I prefer the term "discussions") can hopefully get the ideas flowing. --Zhoul 22:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Kapoli, I've never read an entry in an encyclopedia that had more than one or two quotes for something. It's a pretty rare thing for an encyclopedia to include; the quote has to be pretty crucial to the definition of the person or event. Wiki 24 seems to be getting a little unprofessional in that respect. But that's just my opinion. Like you said, this is a community effort, so if people can't assert their suggestions on making the site nicer, cleaner, easier to use and navigate, then what's the point? I'm painfully aware that a lot of people probably do come to this site to find quotes, which is why I would never campaign for their abolishment. As a matter of fact, I was the one who created the quotes heading on the episode pages in the first place! But c'mon, I can't be the only one who thinks we're bordering on excessive at this point. Or at least approaching bordering, if that makes any sense.

This has been addressed before, but Wiki 24 can never be the "go-to site for everything 24." We're an encylopedia, so we cover a lot of ground, but certainly not even close to everything 24. An encyclopedia is still just an encyclopedia. --Proudhug 22:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Webster says an encyclopedia is meant to "treat comprehensively" a subject. There's a lot of subjectivity right there. It doesn't say, for instance, that an encyclopedia covering a teevee show can't include lots of quotes; I would argue that the word "comprehensive" suggests that the one thing an encyclopedia must have is as much information as possible. Proudhug, if you want to keep claiming that things are outside the scope of this project, you're going to have to be more specific than just saying it's "not encyclopedic." I agree with Kapoli - if you don't like the quotes, ignore them. The whole point of making separate pages for quotes was to keep them from cluttering up other articles. If you have usability or aesthetic issues beyond that, please by all means explain what they are and suggest alternatives.


 * Zhoul, you seem to be arguing that we shouldn't include quotes at all. Indulge me in an analogy. Paper encyclopedias are limited by space, but the Wikipedia article on Mark Twain has lots of quotes. And it certainly should, being as he was a writer famous for his wit. Instead of the article merely asserting that Twain was witty - which isn't objective, but is absolutely vital information to include - the quotes make the case.


 * One would likewise expect a scripted TV show to produce a lot of memorable quotes. In 24 particularly, the dialogue often packs a lot of meaning, because the real-time format limits what they can do with editing. If you read the quotes I picked for Lynn McGill, you can see his character arc - robotic bureaucrat to crazy dictator to humbled hero. Did I pick them subjectively? Yes, of course. Subjectivity is inherent to writing about creative works. You can't will it away. Every time an editor chooses to include or omit a detail, a quote, or a description, that's a subjective decision. The best we can do is minimize bias (not eliminate - that can't be done, either). If you disagree, consider that your own argument that "memorable quotes" screams "fan site" is wholly subjective. I think it screams IMDb, personally.


 * Finally, just a little reminder that the topic of this site is not The Western Canon. It's television. It's not even serious television, like PBS. Why would we want to leech all the flavor out of empty-calorie fun like 24 by adhering to obsessive standards of objectivity and solemnity? --StBacchus 09:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You've made some excellent points, StBacchus. However, I never said quotes were not encyclopedic, just that it's nothing you really see very often. In that respect it seems non-encyclopedic for sure. To me, anyway. But who's to say what information can and can't ever appear in an encyclopedia? We're all merely trying to determine what to include in this encyclopedia. Keep in mind that I don't think we should abolish quotes, just limit them, and relegate them to more specific locations. Also keep in mind that this is just my opinion, and the only reason people post their opinions are to fish for those who agree.

You make a good point in your choice of quotes for Lynn McGill. That's a legitimate use of quotations for an encyclopedia, in my opinion. Unfortunately, most other pages don't have any such "adjenda". --Proudhug 10:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough! I apologize if I mischaracterized your argument. I do agree that people sometimes include way too much (see my edits to Richard Walsh) - the trick is deciding which quotes actually "say" something, or which are funniest, and there's just no metric for that. Earlier, Willo suggested putting quotes that define the characters on their pages, and quotes that define episodes on episode pages (I think he was getting at the same thing you are, that some quotes are best considered excerpts of episodes). What do you think about that? --StBacchus 11:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I started thinking about encyclopaedic examples where quotes would be included. Most historical figures would have them: Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Martin Luther King Jr., even Mark Twain as you mentioned. So I'm definitely not discounting the use of quotes here. The key is assessing what's "memorable", and keeping things succinct. Like I tried to illustrate above, the word "memorable" isn't appropriate because it's not neutral. Suggestion: Drop the word "Memorable" from the description and simply call it "Quotes". It's far less suggestive and biased. Anyway, I believe part of the selection process should be "What quote shapes this character?" rather than "Which quote is arbitrarily funny?" For example, in an entry for Martin Luther King Jr., you are going to find quotes from his speeches about the fight against racism and such. You are not going to find: "Hot damn, this pizza is good!" because it's not relevant to supporting the rest of the description of who he was. If in Jack Bauer's profile, it is stated that he is a rogue operative who likes to break the law for the greater good, then quotes like "Mr. President, I will kill you if I need to!" would be appropriate, because they back up that claim. Similarly, quotes like "Damnit!" show off his testy nature. That being said, we don't need to highlight all 100 quotes that demonstrate Jack's "coolness".

Incidentally, IMDb is in no way an official source of information, so it's perhaps not the best gauge of a professional encyclopedia. However, if we want to make the comparison, IMDb uses the phrase "Personal Quotes" rather than "Memorable Quotes".

One last thing: I think each episode should house all of its quotes, listed chronologically, and I think those quotes should go on a separate child page for that episode. That is, the character quotes should be a subset of the episode quotes, and not a mutually exclusive entity. Because he's in every episode and has a gazillion quotes, Jack Bauer should also have a separate child page. All other characters can probably have their quotes listed on their main page. Or maybe we should set a cap of ~15 quotes: once you reach 15, you get a separate page...? Finally, all quotes appearing on character pages should cite the episode in which they appear. Specifically, they should hyperlink to the quotes page for the given episode. This way, people can easily navigate to find the context of the quote. --Zhoul 14:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The IMDb uses "Memorable Quotes," and this isn't a professional encyclopedia. Professionals get paid. Editors here do it only as long as it's fun, hence the concern about driving people away. If you'd like, we can post some guidelines on the Policies page, but you're never going to get people to stop adding quotes they like, especially if they're funny. Anyway, why shouldn't we include a hundred quotes to demonstrate Jack's coolness, or ones that are funny or deep?


 * I like your formatting and organizing ideas, but I have a quibble with dropping the word "Memorable." Unless we're including every line a character ever said, the quotes are pretty much ipso facto going to be the ones that people find memorable. There's no need to be coy about it; in fact, plain "Quotes" suggests that there's no discrimination going on, when actually what we all seem to want is for people to be more selective in what they choose to include.


 * It's fine by me if all the character quotes are also on the respective episode pages, and that quotes are cited by episode - although that's going to be tough to do since we haven't been doing it all along. I suppose setting a hard limit on the number of quotes that go on a character page would work, although it seems needlessly constrictive. How about a range? Fewer than 5 quotes, they stay on the character's page. More than 10, they go on a separate page. In between, editors use their own discretion. --StBacchus 18:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess I'll try and see if we can try and get a compromise then. My feeling is that, fewer than 5 quotes, and it's not really a huge problem to scroll past them. As for long lists of quotes, well, wikipedia has wikiquote, so I see no problem with us doing something similar. IMDB has memorable quotes for movies, personal quotes for biographies, and has been said, it's sort of a different monster in and of itself. I feel if there is a separate page once a character's quotes get out of control, it really is no problem. You know that page is what it is, a collection of quotes.

That said, I don't understand the viewpoint that when something gets hard to do or decide, we do away with it. Willo really did come up with a nice idea. Quotes are a way of a character's way of representing themselves, and reveals information about their personal views, ways of handling stress, and political beliefs. It would be far more subjective to try to interpret these views and characterizations in a paragraph about them. Quotes speak for themselves and also help define the character. They seem important to me. - Xtreme680 20:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I just added a Jack/Chappelle quote to Jack's extra memorable quotes page. So... what's the verdict here, should I not have done that? Also, last week I added Jack's monolouge to Logan in episode 5.24 - is that too long? Anybody? If my quote contributions are what Proudhug was talking about, I can cut it out - unless we want them to keep coming. --JPizzle1122 23:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Whoops! I guess someone took that comment about the lack of vandalism as an invitation after all.... thanks very much to Proudhug and Xtreme680 for correcting everything immediately. I wish I could have been here to help. -Kapoli 22:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, it was loads of fun. :-D --Proudhug 02:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)