Forum:New Wiki for Indian 24 series

I believe the new series should have its own Wikia site. New admins, new community, separate homepage, and its own content, color scheme, etc. Anyone else agree we are sort of forcing it to fit among the US series content? Sooner is a better time to start than later. 05:36, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think there's room for both; there might be a little overlap content-wise, e.g. India, but for the most part it will probably be in its own section away from the U.S. stuff. It is, however, probably a good idea to at least hold off on fleshing it out any further until there's a subtitled version (if there ever is). The updates I've made about what characters match which are all from the official site synopses (the same source for the new character pages) and some of them are educated guesses. Might be best to limit the new content to 24 (Indian TV series) and take out the links to the new characters/episodes. --Pyramidhead (talk) 08:03, November 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Like earlier said by Acer4666 that we could use templates on the pages of 24 (Indian TV series) character pages. --Station7 (talk) 09:57, November 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Do we know with certainty that it takes place in a different universe than the US series? Even if it does, plenty of other wikis have no problem distinguishing between different continuities within the same franchise.  I see no reason to include any and all information from the Indian series here as well as the original series.  It's an official 24 product and as such deserves to be included here. --proudhug (talk) 04:34, November 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * This means we are asserting that the events of Day 1 in LA, also occurred in India, with the only difference being the people look different and stuff has different names. Pretty much, right? Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? The problem is that we, this particular community, have always thrown everything into the same continuity with a handful of rare exceptions (primarily limited to deleted TV scenes and blatantly retconned spin-offs). I wouldn't have an issue with this if we hadn't been so opposed to recognizing separate continuities in the past. 05:43, November 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Whether it's in the same "universe" is beside the point; it's a retelling of a previous story that's not likely to intersect with the existing setting or characters in any way. (At least not until Kiefer does his cameo, and who knows what that would do.) The more I think about it, though, there are a number of pages that would become rather messy - do we want to have to basically copy-paste entire sections of Mole or Interrogation with the names changed as the new show catches up? I already dislike splitting articles into "Day X" headings; doing the same thing for separate continuities will be a nightmare. Of course, it's all moot until an English-subbed version is made available, unless anyone here speaks Hindi. --Pyramidhead (talk) 07:07, November 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think we shouldn't have too much of a problem keeping things here. Lots of other franchises have wikis that encompass their whole universe of films, shows, etc. regardless of how "well" they integrate (or not) with each other. As long as we figure an organic way to discern some articles from others, I don't think there should be a problem. An idea was thrown around a couple of weeks ago that mentioned using a specific banner/header, whether on top of the page, or maybe within the infoboxes? to discern what belongs to the original show or to the Indian version. Thief12 (talk) 01:10, November 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * I might be being really annoying here but I think this indian remake is (kind of) comparable to the show being dubbed in different languages. The French wiki 24 uses the dubbed show as canon, so anything said by the French actors is what happened. Presumably there are slight differences in the dialogue, which could be noted here but not worked into the in-universe continuity. I mean it seems to be a direct re-telling of the Day 1 storyline right? Just translated across for Indian audiences. Trying to work it together seems wrong. Perhaps a separate namespace? Or a visual clue like a banner what Thief said--Acer4666 (talk) 13:59, November 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not quite a remake; the political story is completely new and seems to tie into the main plot more than Palmer's adventure in Season 1, plus Jack has a son as well as a daughter. That's one point in favor of covering it, but I still worry that it might lead to some redundancy on the broader articles. --Pyramidhead (talk) 20:59, November 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * While it is pretty insane for it to be a remake for the most part, one could also take into account that Jai Singh Rathod may simply be just a man with a similar background as Bauer's.--Gunman6 (talk) 07:38, December 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, I have to say I'm not happy with the articles for the new Indian series characters. Bad enough that they're just copy-pasted from the official site, but - again - it is literally not feasible to expand them any further without an English version available. Anyone else in favor of redirecting them to 24 (Indian TV series) for now? If we ever decide to revisit they'll still be in the page history. --Pyramidhead (talk) 18:34, December 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say it's not feasible to expand them until an english versin is released - all it would take is an editor who is familiar with the storyline of the indian show. Just because we don't currently have an editor like that shouldn't affect decisions on how to handle the indian show here on the wiki - redirecting all the articles I think would put off any potential editors who could help.
 * (Certainly remove or re-write any copy-pasted text, though).
 * The real issue here is that we need to come to a decision on how to deal with the in-universe information from the indian show. There's clearly a problem in mixing it together, especially as many articles would cover things from both american and indian versions. As I see it, the options are:
 * Treat the two shows as happening in the same universe. As I said before, I don't think this is a good idea and I think it's tantamount to trying to fit the foreign language dubbed shows into the continuity as well.
 * Admit we're dealing with two continuities, and for articles like India or interrogation, split the page into two sections with clearly marked "american" and "indian" versions. I think this would be quite confusing and would spoil some of the good pages by repeating information twice.
 * Set up a different namespace for all the 24 india stuff, and have separate articles like "24 India:Interrogation" which can then be linked to within the wiki. This would require staff help probably, but it's been done before for the quotes namespace.
 * Set up a new wiki, with similar theming to this one, treated as a kind of "sister wiki" or whatever, about the indian show, and link to the pages there from this wiki.
 * I would be in favour of option 3 or 4 from these--Acer4666 (talk) 18:55, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I've come all the way around from option 1 to option 4. There's just so much that's going to be overlapping and contradicting that it's not worth the effort to sort out - plus I don't know if the interest level is there among the predominantly non-Hindi speaking editor base to really do it justice. Doing some weird thing with the namespaces would be no better; we'd end up looking like the Unofficial Elders Scrolls Pages which I personally can't stand. I would just wait and see if somebody does make a new wiki, whether somebody here or elsewhere, then link to that for in-depth info. For now, I think the focus should be on building out 24 (Indian TV series) and describing it in relation to the original series. --Pyramidhead (talk) 19:25, December 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Anyone can enhance the Indian show, it's descriptions or the character's backstory at any time if they feel like the online version's descriptions don't suffice. Regardless of it's availability, I don't see how that warrants creating a separate wikia when one could just simply not edit/provide information to that section if they find it too confusing. Also, if the character of Jack Bauer does appear on the Indian version, it's going to seem silly linking back and forth between the two wikias.


 * Just treat it like the books, The Rookie, game or comics where it's a stand-alone spin-off. Saying it should be separate because it's not available to the masses just comes off as too subjective. Plus, if you separate it from the main wikia, interest will vary; I have seen Memory Alpha do this with it's fan wikia and canon wikia and the latter appears to be getting more editors and treating the other wikia as outsiders. Aside from the questionable treatment, less people would possibly be likely to set up and run the different wikia given it's current region availability.


 * Last of all, it's not like this was a random spin-off done with permission from the studios or without the original creator's knowledge. Howard Gordon himself gave Anil Kapoor the right contacts to talk to because he fully supported the actor wanting to do his own version of the show. --Gunman6 (talk) 19:49, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Gunman, I can't tell which of the 4 options you are arguing for. Do you think the continuities should be treated as taking place in the same universe; or do you accept that they are in different universes but want all articles to be on this wiki?--Acer4666 (talk) 19:57, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry this isn't ringing clear. While I could care less either way as to whether it's in the same universe canon or not (I'm not the creators so it's not my place to decide), I am for the latter option since I feel that is for the best.--Gunman6 (talk) 20:12, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * The core problem is that, currently, only a select number of people - those who can understand the dialogue - are capable of contributing in any meaningful way. For instance, the political plot line is completely new. Something about "St. Stephens" and a graduation? Good luck trying to figure out what that's about just by the episode summaries! It's basically putting a huge chunk of new content in the hands of a few with no way of verifying what parts are true or false. So much effort has been devoted to preventing exactly that situation from happening again - just look at the Zoltan mess, and that was something from the U.S. show! I'm opposed to covering both series on here, but really, the entire discussion shouldn't even happen until everyone is capable of contributing on an even playing field. Just my opinion. --Pyramidhead (talk) 20:14, December 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Again, my two cents, I don't see how because it's limited in terms of available editors will help change any progress by forming a separate wikia. It's almost like if one were to divide the Lord of the Rings wikia and form a separate The Hobbit wikia due to some considering the new trilogy adaptation separate canon. It really doesn't make much sense when they're related one way or another.
 * We're still trying to find out unknown actors on the original show as it is so I think with given time, we can get most everything all sorted out here on the Indian version. We still don't have all the information for all the books, the official game or The Rookie come to think of it. Should those get their separate wikias because they have a limited access to a certain amount of people?--Gunman6 (talk) 20:45, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, the wiki isn't comprehensive yet, and it probably never will be. But that's only because nobody's put in the effort - you could buy all the books on Amazon right now and be reading them on a Kindle within five minutes. The same can't be said of this series, which - as far as anyone knows - may not get an English release at all. It seems to be doing gangbusters in India, so there is interest somewhere, but it's essentially off-limits to us for the time being because there isn't a legal, understandable means of consuming it and documenting what's in it on the wiki. --Pyramidhead (talk) 21:00, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I get where you're going with this but regardless of whether it gets a Region 1 or 2 release, I don't see how making it be on a separate wikia will do anything for anyone. If it never gets available in any fashion, it can just be left as is for now on the wikia. Better to be safe than sorry isn't it?--Gunman6 (talk) 21:14, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely! As I said, I'd prefer to change the new characters to redirects, but otherwise I think the current article is insightful enough without going into too much detail. If someday there is a wide release and there's enough interest, the issue can be revisited. If it came to it, I think I'd be okay with the namespace idea - it would only be on some articles, not on all of them, and it's easier than sticking "(India)" or "(Indian TV series)" after everything. --Pyramidhead (talk) 21:21, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually Gunman6 is right. If we should split the Indian version of 24, so should the Rookie, because that's also a spin-off. However, the 24 Game doesn't, because it's Jack Bauer-related. --Station7 (talk) 21:59, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not at all the same situation - The Rookie, which was directed by the show's DP, makes references up the wazoo to the TV show. One of the villains is the long-lost third Salazar brother. It may not have any of the same characters but it's demonstrably set in the same continuity. --Pyramidhead (talk) 01:38, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * The issue I want to get sorted is where on the canon policy the indian series lies. I believe it is essentially a translation of the first series for foreign audiences, so I would place its standing on the canon scale the same as a foreign dubbed version of the first series. Ie, treat these as separate continuities, and not as canon. This seems to be the feeling of most of the people who've commented on this forum, if I've read that right? Gunman I'm not sure where you stand, but bear in mind we already do this for the french, spanish, dutch, versions of the show. If you peruse any wiki where a foreign remake has happened (the killing/Forbrydelsen, Shameless, Skins, etc) you'll see this is how they deal with it too.
 * So if we all agree the indian show isn't canon, then there's the issue of whether we introduce information about the second continuity on a separate wiki (as we already do for the french, spanish, dutch versions of the show) or include it here. As Pyramidhead said, the issue with including it here is that none of the administrators or regular contributors are in a position to vet the information. Also, whether the info is on the domain name 24.wikia.com/ or whether it's under a separate "sister" wiki is largely academical, as interwiki-linking can be done easily, but the advantages of a separate wiki are (a) no overlap with article names and need for disambiguation tags and (b) an admin team who are able to understand the subject matter--Acer4666 (talk) 01:22, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's disingenuous to put the show on the level of a dub-over. It may be the same basic story, but there are a ton of new story elements that distinguish it, apart from the obvious like different names, antagonists, etc. Not to argue against my own opinion, just putting it out there. --Pyramidhead (talk) 01:42, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it is on the same level, but I'm saying we treat it as such, as it's in the same ballpark, as a translated version of the show (albeit with more work put in and more storyline differences)--Acer4666 (talk) 01:57, December 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Again (and I really won't want to say this to death), regardless of the canon, putting it on a separate wikia will accomplish even less.--Gunman6 (talk) 04:19, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * You say that, but everyone seems to agree the Indian series doesn't fit on the canon policy, and we don't make in-universe articles about things that aren't canon, so the currently the only place allowable to make these pages is on a separate wiki.--Acer4666 (talk) 11:27, December 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Here's the problem we've all acknowledged that regardless of the canon, it is connected one way or another whether existing in a totally different canon or actually being related due to Jack Bauer appearing in it. It falls under "Related spin-off" of the Canon policy one way or another, with cast member [[Anil Kapoor] being the clearest example and it once again revolving around a 24-hour scenario.

And no one has said what good a separate wikia will do nor stated why else it has to happen other then that they don't have the means available to edit it right away. I don't see how that's a sound excuse when it's going to be made available one way or another some day; this is like saying that we must move the articles related to Live Another Day on a separate wikia since it's not made consumable to the masses yet.--Gunman6 (talk) 20:25, December 29, 2013 (UTC)