Talk:Deaths on 24


 * This article has an archived talk page: see Talk:Deaths on 24/Archive.

Summary of unresolved archive issues
I just archived the old talk page because it was too long to be readable (as has been done in the past with Tony's talk page and the Main Page talk).

For convenience's sake, I have summarized below the possible remaining changes to the Death tally which other editors have brought up. These have not been resolved to my knowledge. I'm not taking credit for these items, the credit goes to various editors including (in no particular order) Ggjk, William.Y.Fremont, Acer4666, Mjs1103, ASHPD24, and perhaps others.

Confirmed: the Victor transfer scene is hectic, and I only see 9 people maximum at any one point (which is the old number), but this doesn't rule out anything, because just as Acer says, later when DeSalvo radios for Ray and Lawrence, there are minimum random 5 other men visible with him, Jack, and Victor. Ray and Laurence are obviously off-screen, which makes 10 individuals not just 9 anymore, since the transfer. Add 1 more to the 10 to get 11 men grand total since the chopper pair seemed to remain. This merely means that during the DeSalvo radioing scene, 1 more guy was off-screen as well, whether he's nearby, or farther away with Ray and Lawrence in the shootout. It's the only logical explanation for the discrepancy, good work Acer. Confirmed: the chopper crash news reporter says it was a military helicopter so bare minimum 1 American serviceman died too. Whoops, wait a minute. Although Michelle (ep22) and Jack (ep23) both mention this minimum number, we have a complication. This figure includes "dead or dying" and we don't count people who died outside the 24 hour time period, correct? As such, this is a minimum for overall virus deaths, but we'll never know what proportion of the 800 died before Day 3 ended, which is our deadline. Right? I feel dumb I forgot this.
 * 1) ✅ + 2 The Day 1 MUDD siege: Acer has two very strong points to support the  argument that 2 guys entered the underground prison with Drazen, but refrained from making the changes himself. This shouldn't be too hard to verify.
 * 1) ✅ + 1 Chopper pilot with Shareef: there is no way Shareef and his guy Salim were flying themselves around. At least 1 chopper crewman died with them. Unless someone has some more information, we definitely should add this.
 * 1) ✅ + 800 Minimum from Chandler Plaza: when was this number seen or mentioned? It's the biggest unresolved issue of the whole list.
 * At the minute, people like Craig Phillips, William Cole, etc., are on the list. I am right in saying that Gael was the only confirmed death from the hotel before the end of the day? If so, these guys need to be removed.--Acer4666 (talk) 13:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * More on this - during Day 3: 7:00am-8:00am, at least two people are seen being bagged up or wheeled away. However, Jack Bauer also says to Jane Saunders about her father that "this morning he killed hundreds of people". The use of killed, in the past tense, suggests that at least 200 died before the close of the day.--Acer4666 (talk) 22:39, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * In Day 3: 8:00am-9:00am, Jack showed Jane Saunders the live video of Chandler Plaza and told her that "The people that you are looking at will all be dead within next 2 or 3 hours and almost 800 hundred of them were infected", which means these people were indeed dead before Day 3 ends. So I say that we should add these 800 deaths and there's no need to remove Phillips and Cole. --William 15:59, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * They've now been added - and I don't see a problem with the argument above where Jack confirms that they'll all die before 12pm at the latest. The "dead or dying" mentioned in 10am-11am and 11am-12pm were to include any that were still alive, but by 12pm they were all dead.--Acer4666 (talk) 10:58, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've separated out Gael Ortega (because we have an exact time of death) and Marcus Alvers (because his potential killer is different), and so revised the total to 799 deaths (as casualty figures never include the terrorists who are behind the attack)--Acer4666 (talk) 11:15, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) ✅ + 3  Felsted deaths - 6 different bodies of workers are seen, and Mitchell's death is never confirmed, adding 1 felsted employee to the list. Additionally, the CTU team that went was 4 strong and it was stated to have been wiped out the following episode, adding an extra 2 CTU deaths in addition to Criag Eriwch and Rick. I've added these --Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) ✅ + 2  Rockland building goons: William.Y.Fremont is right when he says that two bodies are seen, one killed by Curtis and one by Lee Castle's team. They're definitely not the bodies of Forbes or Adam or Jason, and no attempt is made to restrain them, so I think it's clear they were killed. I'll add them in --Acer4666 (talk) 16:05, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) ✅ + 3  Mclennen-Forster commandos - 6 kills are seen on-screen, 3 outside and 3 inside the store. Lee Castle then reports that there are 6 bodies outside and and unknown number inside, meaning total deaths before Castle moves in is 9. --Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4) ✅ + 5 CTU agents transportting Bierko: Two agents sit beside Bierko and two agents in the lead car. And there should be at least one agent in the third vehicle. So I think we should add the 5.
 * See the thread "Bierko's 3:36am prison escort" right below this one. 21:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) ✅ + 10 11 Natalia sailors: I plan to re-watch the scenes before and after Bierko invaded the submarine, and count bodies etc. This might be tricky but again, a minimum number is very good to have.
 * Here's how I see the gassing go down. Initially, Southern is with 3 other guys. All are wearing dark blue clothes: Skeet has his sleeves rolled up, Dominic Competore's character has an armband, and the other guy has fair hair. None of the bodies that turn up later have any of these three characteristics - therefore these 3 die. Plus Southern, that makes 4. When the gassing happens, we see 4 different guys go down in large open spaces (not tight corridors). 8 so far. Bierko then enters the sub, passing a slumped body in a tight corridor. 9 so far. Then in the next episode, outside the sub there are 3 bodies seen at the port (one by the gate to the pier, 2 by the gangplank to the sub). 12 so far. When Tim Rooney checks the cameras, he sees 3 dead bodies, all in tight corridors (none in the same position as the "tight corridor" body of last episode). 15 so far. Before Rooney kills the sentry, he sees a fair haired guy, with light blue shirt, dead in open space. None of the open space deaths from last episode had fair hair. Now we're on 16. After Jack enters the sub, he passes a guy slumped in a corridor, but this is the same body Bierko passed last episode. So far we've got 6 innocent deaths listed, I think an extra 10 should be added. I can provide pics if needed--Acer4666 (talk) 20:10, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there's a body when the Jean Smart credit appeared. And another one when Bierko fell down to the ground. About the rest I think you are right. --William 16:04, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I see the Jean Smart credit body (white dude, short blond hair, beige short-sleeve shirt, on his back with right arm extended outward) but I can't retrace all of your steps Acer to know if this dude was already seen. Acer if you have those pics stored somewhere can you just email em to me? 01:28, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've emailed them now (the e-mail may say it's from "David Acer", the email address needed a legitimate first name and it hasn't let me change the stupid thing since!). I believe the Jean Smart credit body adds another, but the legs seen as Bierko falls could belong to either Dominic Competore's character or the fair-haired man seen with him. Therefore I think we need to add 11 to the list.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:33, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * +11 done, thanks men! 18:42, August 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps another one, I don't think we've ever counted him in. --William (talk) 03:43, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah good spot, he was not anywhere in the count we did above--Acer4666 (talk) 16:37, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) ✅ + 200 Fayed's Baltimore mall bomb, and possibly others. I will verify this very soon, too, if nobody beats me too it. The shopping mall does indeed have at least 200 deaths by 8am. The problem is, Buchanan also says "the casualty estimate in St. Louis has risen to 112". This makes no sense, as in the previous episode the 3 targets were Chicago, Baltimore, and LA, and then in this one he briefs Palmer about casualties in St. Louis, Baltimore, and LA. I honestly think this is a mistake, and he means that the casualties from the hotel have risen from 47 to 112. Dunno what others think --Acer4666 (talk) 17:44, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am continuing this topic in the "Fayed's attacks" thread below. 08:01, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) + 1 New issue - the raid on Fayed's apartment in Day 6: 1:00pm-2:00pm. Having watched the scenes carefully, I'm sure that excluding Fayed there are 7 different guys in the apartment. We only see 6 killed during the raid, but afterwards Hal Turner says that they did a head count of bodies and only 1 guy got away: Fayed. So I think an extra one needs to be added.--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) + 1,000 Valencia nuclear bomb - In Day 6: 12:00am-1:00am, Peter Hock said to Karen Hayes that "The country's in shock after losing 13.000 innocent lives". So I think the casualties have grown to 13,000 and another thousand deaths should be added to this page. The number 13,000 might have been mentioned in other episodes as well, as Ggjk has stated. --William 05:27, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's true Peter Hock says 13,000 - but I think once we've establiashed how many casualties have been killed in the other attacks we'd have to take that off, as he doesn't specify they're nuke deaths, just overall casualties of Fayed throughout the day. So maybe about 700 extra--Acer4666 (talk) 11:40, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * You're probably right. So after we cut off the LA (23), Chicago (112) and Baltimore bombing (200) 335 deaths, we need to add an extra 665 deaths. --William 11:58, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am continuing this topic in the "Fayed's attacks" thread below. 08:01, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) ✅ + 1 In Day 7: 9:00am-10:00am, dvd time around 06:42 Larry Moss says "there was sniper fire at Schector's office, we got 3 dead bodies", indicating someone else other than Ari and Gabriel Schector was killed there--Acer4666 (talk) 23:43, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I added this unspecified person with a tilde on the timestamp to indicate the time of death was estimated. I suspect it was a continuity error. But it's canonical now, so it must refer to someone Tanner killed offscreen beforehand in the Columbia Building, just like how Tokarev killed the elderly guy before he shot Renee. Too bad we'll never know. 17:02, August 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) ? did 2 or 4 Juma dudes die with gas explosion?
 * 2) ✅ + 1 FBI agent killed by Galvez's bombs, definitely, but William.Y.Fremont, could there be more?
 * All right, at least two agents. --William 09:12, January 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. Jack finds an FBI agent on the ground, then ignores him as he starts shouting for Renee. Unlikely that Jack would leave a man who needs assistance, so that's 1 dead. Galvez smears blood from another agent all over himself; no reason to suspect that guy is alive either, so 2. Finally the guy Renee found is tended to by medics so I'd say his status is classic Unknown, leaving it at 2 minimum confirmed kills. It sucks how the aftermath of this attack seems to be completely ignored later on. 15:06, August 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) ✅ + 1 Apparently, a news reporter said that 3 people died during Davros's attack. I no longer believe that the cop Jim Koernig and his wife Maggie were being referred to at all. It had to be Davros himself; the limo driver William.Y.Fremont discovered; and the agent stabbed to death by Farhad.

Soon we will have these resolved. And I already verified and added stuff mentioned by William and others about the Air Force One crash minimum death count and the minimum number of Derek Rosner co-workers. Personally I can't wait for the next crop of issues to come up so we can solve them, too, and perhaps there will be a day when we realize we've counted everyone there was to count. 02:14, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Massive thanks for going through that monster talk page and summarising it! Just having a flick through myself, was there also some missed deaths on the Rockland Building in Season 4 to check out? Dead bodies on the floor as Jack and Curtis meet up.
 * On the topic of Season 4 - do deaths from 24: Conspiracy need to be included, as they happen during the 24-hour period of Season 4? In a way, the 257 people killed in Flight 221 are just as much wholly eu characters, never seen or mentioned in the TV show.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:51, January 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * First, I'm really sorry I didn't notice that Kevin Keeler was on there already when I added the 75 earlier. My bad Acer, and thanks for going through and fixing that. (Next time I do something stupid like that feel free to just point it out.) And yes you're right I may have missed something, if you want, you can like add it right to my post with a different color or something, and sign it individually, for convenience's sake so people will see em all together.
 * The Flight 221 issue came up sometime before, and the result of the talk was: those people died during the first episode of Season 1. The only thing the Expanded Universe did was specify the number, right?
 * As for Conspiracy, it's an interesting point although they probably don't need to be added since it was entirely a spin-off. People come to this page for television episode deaths, and that's what it historically has encompassed. 07:28, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Research on 1, 2, and 3 reported in colored text above. 08:03, January 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Added some rockland building deaths as point 4. No probs about the Keeler - didn't take too long to alter!
 * I suppose factu only specified deaths already hinted at, and yeah I'm not mad keen on adding conspiracy deaths (although the current inclusion criteria wording would include them) so no big deal. Ideally I'd like this page to exclude all eu info completely - what I loved about s1 was the casual killing off of established characters like Mark DeSalvo, Krugman, Ted Paulson, and then Mark Cerasini wades in and arbitrarily decides to keep some alive, kind of robbing the show of the drama of those scenes. I think it's cos back when season 1 was originally on TV, I made a list of deaths myself, without reading the eu material. Anyway, rant over! Back to confirming these points.--Acer4666 (talk) 18:29, January 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Regarding the Rockland building situation, after Jack met up with Curtis, Lee asked "How many are still alive" and Curtis replied "I'm not sure. But at least four" (which I believe including Ali). And during the 05:52:14 split screen a man can be seen lying on the ground (I'm not sure if he was the same man killed by Curtis, but it would be strange that Lee and his men spent five minutes staying at the same place). Since that henchman killed by Curtis had been added by Acer, I think that we should add another 2 more deaths. Any objections?
 * Also when that IDS Flase Marwan picked up his phone, he said something like "Hey Bob, what's going on", but I'm not sure whether it's worth an article.
 * And I suggest that you guys take Felsted shootout casualties and MF commandos issues into consideration. --William 10:46, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I forgot about the felsted security, even though we'd resolved it on the talk page I never went and did the changes. I'll do it now.
 * As for the other Rockland building body - that's definitely the same body as the guy killed by Curtis (comparison here) It's on the same floor, in the same position, next to the same set of doors. When Curtis said 4 alive, I believe he was referring to Ali, Marwan, Forbes, and the other guy killed by Castle's men.
 * And I don't see what needs to be changed with the MF commandoes. At 7:53 Castle said he could see 6 down outside - and there are six kills on the list before that (4 by Jack, 1 by Safa and 1 by Paul Raines). What needs changing?--Acer4666 (talk) 15:44, January 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about the "4 alive", let's wait for others' opinions.
 * Jack killed 3 commandos outside the store. The fourth kill and Paul's and Safa's kill were made inside the store. But when Castle's team reached the location, he said "Six down outside", which means they probably killed another 3 commandos off-screen? --William 15:59, January 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ah, that makes sense. I'll add an extra three MF commandos, if no-one has objections by tomorrow.--Acer4666 (talk) 16:07, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Added, summarised it above and added another issue with Day 6.--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Bierko's 3:36am prison escort
The survivors of the Bierko prison escort are only: Davis (Day 5), the terrorist who was driving, and Bierko himself. Everyone else got killed, and I'm seeing at least 3 of them: two TAC guys who flank Bierko as he sits down in the van, and the driver of the lead car which is a sedan that gets blown up with an IED. When Davis makes his report, there are 2 corpses, as far as I can tell these were the two guys I mentioned earlier.

Interestingly there is a flaming wreck behind the van, in addition to the flaming sedan in front of it. I suppose this is supposed to be a third CTU vehicle? Davis does say to Karen "two vehicle escort" which might mean "2 vehicles are escorting the main transport" for a total of three. Since there has to be at least 1 guy in that third vehicle, the count goes up to 4 deaths minimum. (I don't want to raise the number higher than 4 because I cannot prove that there was anyone else in either the lead or the rear vehicle besides the drivers, and it does not seem possible to determine if anyone was seated in the passenger seat next to the terrorist driver. Also it looks like Davis was sitting alone across from Bierko.) 09:14, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * That all makes sense to me--Acer4666 (talk) 12:58, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Added, but I'm making sure with William that it wasn't 5 men, as he suggested back in January. 21:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah it does turn out to be 5, William confirmed it. I'm adding the other 1. 05:13, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Adding ticks
I just went through and added checkmark ticks to all the stuff I know was added, for the purpose of making it clear what else needs to be looked at again. Feel free to add ticks if you know the content was added/subtracted/vetoed. I do know I missed a few. 21:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Season 4, 5, and 6 Prequels
Since Redemption is the prequel for Season 7 (and is referred to as a "prequel" for Season 7 by many sites online), should the deaths from the prequels of the previous three seasons be included (I believe five total)? I'm unsure of why Redemption's deaths are included but not those. Nfl392 (talk) 18:19, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Many reasons - the prequels are "expanded universe" just like novels & games because they were never shown as episodes on TV. They were just special features on a DVD, whereas Redemption was an episode shown on TV. It's actually a "prologue", so those (unofficial) sites are wrong to call it a prequel (just as the "official" prequels are wrongly named).
 * Also, the time periods covered by the prequels often span the entire gap between the seasons, so we would often have to include all mentioned deaths from novels, games etc. that happened in between the seasons. I believe the point of this page is to count deaths that happened during the time period covered by aired episodes of the TV show, as per the introductory paragraph.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:29, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Acer in principle but for different reasons. (In the past, Acer and I agreed to disagree about the "span the entire gap between the seasons" point, because for me they only span what they show to occur in the live action.) Primarily I'm fine with not including those deaths here because Proudhug wouldn't budge on the definition of "expanded universe". Either way, in my opinion it is said and done. 05:13, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Season 6 Prequel
Regardless of whether the prequel deaths are included or not: In the Season 6 prequel, of course the whole "escape" was a ruse but were those Chinese guards actually killed by the mercenaries (I don't doubt that Cheng Zhi and the Chinese government would be willing to let them get killed as long as the ruse worked) or were the shootings fake, a la Greg Seaton and Stokes (Day 7)? Nfl392 (talk) 18:22, July 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that is ever revealed--Acer4666 (talk) 19:30, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

FBI Agents at Crescent Collectibles (Day 2, 2pm-3pm)?
The FBI agent with a battering ram was shot twice by a terrorist with a pistol and fell to the ground. A second agent going through the main entrance was hit by an automatic weapon (multiple rounds), and he slumped against the wall and hit the floor. These are "not included" apparently because of their protective gear, even though we have no visual evidence they survived the shots. In Day 4 (10:08 pm), a CTU agent was hit by an automatic weapon (multiple rounds) and wore protective gear, and he falls to the ground. The Deaths on 24 page lists him as dead, even though it was really no different from the FBI agents from Day 2. In Day 6 (8:45 am), a CTU agent in protective gear is shot only once with a pistol and falls to the ground. That is also counted on the Deaths page. I think that the FBI deaths should be counted, and if not then the CTU agent deaths shouldn't be counted. Nfl392 (talk) 01:49, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable... I'll defer to you but will look into it and weigh in if someone says otherwise. 05:13, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

It's no different from the McLennen-Forster commandos or Brucker's commandos either. Besides Adrion Bishop and poor Specter, those guys were all shot only once or twice while wearing protective gear, and are counted here as dead. The MF commandos were confirmed dead by CTU, but I'm not sure about Brucker's commandos. Nfl392 (talk) 00:48, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Fayed's attacks
At the moment, I'm convinced that Fayed directed 4 attacks, not just 3, during 7-8am. Here is what I have to support it so far: first, while he's talking with Masheer, Fayed only says "other attacks" at the end of 7-8am, not anything with a number like "our other 2 attacks". Now, although Milo does indeed mention three simultaneous attacks, but who says it is impossible that 1 other attack didn't get reported right away, or that it happened a minute or so afterward? Nothing, really. Shortly after 8am, we attend Buchanan right in the middle of summarizing the attacks to the President, and he talks about a St. Louis attack with a revised casualty count. Currently, we are construing this as a mistake and saying this is supposed to be the revised Chicago hotel estimate. However, they are staring at a TV showing a suicide bomb aftermath at an airport. It must be the same thing by process of elimination. Additionally, there's no way to disprove the strong possibility that Buchanan may have just been talking about the Chicago hotel the moment before the scene changed, right before he updated Palmer about St. Louis.
 * 1) The Baltimore shopping mall with 200+ dead;
 * 2) the Chicago hotel detonated by remote car-bomb with 47 dead;
 * 3) the failed Nasir Trabelsi subway suicide bomb; and...
 * 4) a suicide attack at an airport in St. Louis with 112 dead.

Although it may seem initially that I'm grasping at straws to make this fit, I am very confident this is a better interpretation of the details if you give it a chance. This is because this explanation does not assume that Buchanan was saying the wrong city to the President. It only assumes either that Milo hadn't been updated when he reported 3 attacks, or that the airport attack in St Louis actually hadn't occurred at that moment and therefore he couldn't have known. It could have occurred at any moment afterward between then and shortly before Buchanan's update to Palmer.

One point of interest is that I haven't checked any references made after 8-9am to those off-screen attacks, because I can't find them, and they may contradict some of this. Also it might be conceivable if the airport attack footage was recycled from an earlier episode, it could be referring to an attack before Day 6. But given the context I find it extremely unlikely. 08:01, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems raisonable to me--Acer4666 (talk) 14:37, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Galvez's numbers for Day 7 & Day 8 deaths examined.
GALVEZ'S MURDERS:


 * I sent Acer some final numbers for the apartment complex bomb explosion caused by Galvez. If anyone needs further examination, I'll try to get those .jpegs forwarded later. Here's what I had written down:

'''Ep. 19 (2 AM - 3 AM) ::

6 FBI Agents are seen entering the building with 2 Agents in front of Renee, 1 agent already in there & 1 behind Renee (All shown in split-screen);

5 other agents  on the inside stairway at 2:47:02   mark seen where the first bomb becomes visible to the audience. '''

''NOTE:  I didn't count anyone else outside since or after that scene either because they appeared to be the same agents, they were never seen going in or it was impossible to tell in the dark.

At least 5 agents (including the main Asian one and bald FBI guy) are seen making it out before and after commercial break and since they're the ones seen outside entering the apartment (first ones mentioned BTW), we need to substract 5 points  and it you get 1. The first three things highlighted in bold olblique are in the background and since the last two agents I mention are by the door in the first sentence, one can assume that they're the ones seen getting blown the hell off the staircase plus one of the five agents seen on the stairway is one of the last consumed

Also, possibly five scientists blown up by Tony at the gas plant but that's going to fly as unconfirmed. ''

'''ACTUAL BREAKDOWN:


 * The 2 FBI Agents seen in front of Renee are blown up (THE ONES CURRENTLY ADDED)


 * Two agents closest to the camera fall over and the FBI car stops as soon as the explosion goes off, implying that the blast probably fatally knocked him against the steering wheel/he died from the impact, plain and simple (I apologize for the three circled agents to the left since they make it out and I couldn't edit this photo). = 3


 * 1 FBI agent seen briefly flying from the blast for a half of a second


 * Two other Agents (one with SWAT helmet, the other regular) on the stairway are consumed by the blast (one of the is obviously the same SWAT/FBI guy falling over again but since it's used from a different angle, this is a common production trick in moviemaking and for continuity purposes, we can count it as a separate kill)= 3

'''
 * 4 Agents outside are knocked down by the blast before it cuts away with one extra big blast = DEAD.

= 12 on-screen deaths plus 5 off-screen deaths (implicated since those agents weren't seen leaving or unaccounted for) earns you 17 deaths for  "Evil Curtis" Galvez (22 total when you add the other five deaths caused by the assassin).

'''
 * DAY 8 BEGINNING:

- Alver's (Bentio Martinez of The Shield fame) two contacts are seen dead in the first episode and those deaths were thrown out because it was believed they were before the beginning of the day, which is sorta odd since the female contact called because it has presumably just happened (most likely by the Red Square sniper) and like most kills, I split them up with the dead contact in the tub being presumably by the RS Spotter). Again, all the wounds were fresh blood and they were outside ready to ambush Avers so I don't see how this happened before the day. Most likely while Jack was waking up with grand-daughter Teri me thinks ...

'''

Also, this Johnson guy: http://24.wikia.com/wiki/Johnson_(Day_8) isn't seen getting back on the CTU copter so I would rather leave it unconfirmed but that's just me. Do they mention him as dead or is there something else confirming it or what?--Gunman6 (talk) 22:42, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * So is there no way to confirm any of this or not?--Gunman6 (talk) 18:18, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

Bishop's Commandos vs Secret Service
I think this scene needs to be re-examined. The current listing (in the first section of the firefight) is:


 * Nabeel
 * 2 SS agents
 * Hassan's security guard
 * 2 more SS agents
 * 2 of Bishop's commandos
 * 2 Secret Service agents

I make it this:


 * Nabeel
 * Bald agent with Hassan (played by Eyad Elbitar, his behaviour earlier in the episode & costume suggests he's Hassan's IRK bodyguard rather than SS)
 * SS agent standing by car with Dalton, played by Tony Donno
 * Then Dalton himself
 * Then one of the commandoes killed by O'Connor (or maaaaybe hit by Jack's shots but probably O'Connor's kill)
 * Then an SS agent goes down, played by George Colucci
 * Then O'Connor takes out another commando, played by Justin Sundquist
 * Then an SS agent goes down played by Henry M. Kingi, Jr.

By the end, Molly O'Connor and one more SS agent (played by John Meier) are left, but as we don't explicitly see them killed they can't be added on the list. The net change to the article would be -2.

I'm fairly sure about this but will wait for a week for anyone to check it themselves and discuss, before changing it--Acer4666 (talk) 21:31, November 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't recall Meier's character taking part at all in the firefight but Molly was dead for sure as she had taken numerous bullet wounds but again feel free to reevaluate.--Gunman6 (talk) 22:48, November 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Molly O'Connor was last seen firing shots towards the commandos, then it cuts to Jack and she is never seen again, she never took any bullet wounds on screen. John Meier was one of the last SS agents alive, him and Henry M Kingi Jr were shooting next to each other. Are you able to re-watch the scene?--Acer4666 (talk) 22:50, November 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * In making another edit to the Day 8 section, I discovered a mistake in the count, so I went ahead with this change to avoid having to recount everything twice (and rectifying the counting error ASAP). I'm sure enough of my interpretation to do that, but I'd encourage anyone who can to watch the scene to verify I've counted everything OK. If we decide on different numbers I'll make the change back--Acer4666 (talk) 23:31, November 27, 2012 (UTC)

Extended motorcade assault: missing deaths?
The scene where Eric is named is an extended, not deleted, scene correct? Doesn't that mean we can add the "four additional Secret Service agents in the follow-up SUVs" who are noted to have been killed in the footnotes? 18:42, December 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's in the deleted scenes part of the Season 5 DVD - so I guess it's non-canon. I think a discussion needs to be had about the difference between "extended versions" and "deleted scenes" - eg, the later episodes of Season 1, some episodes of Season 8, and Redemption, all have "extended versions" which we count as canon. But the motorcade assault is a deleted scene like all the rest, even though it includes some shots used in the final version--Acer4666 (talk) 18:50, December 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is an interesting point. Yes, deleted scenes are considered non-canon and while we have used them to identify certain character's names. I seem to recall this scene being deleted but the confusion comes from it being called "Extended." I could personally go either way on this one though since this scene was most likely excluded for time purposes and appears to explain most of the continuity with the mentioned SS agents killed in action portion.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:28, December 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Aha that's what I was forgetting: you can use deleted scenes for names of characters who are seen in canonical scenes, but that's all they can be used for. Thanks Gunman! (Those guys will stay in the footnotes.) 05:59, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

Salazar's not counted
In the not-counted topic it says the corpses in Day 3: 1:00pm-2:00pm were people who suffered from the Cordilla Virus. But the Salazars weren't in the possession of it, right? So these cannot be from the Cordilla Virus. Correct me when I'm wrong. 80.171.21.89 16:58, December 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you talking about the corpse which Jack's people drop off at the security center or the bodies seen being buried at Salazar's residence? Either way, I believe they weren't counted due to them occuring possibly before the entire day began.


 * Don't get me wrong, it could use a little better wording but I think that's why it wasn't counted to begin with.--Gunman6 (talk) 18:17, December 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah this was a little confusing but the Ukrainian scientists who were in possession of the virus provided the Salazars with a truckload of dead infected bodies as evidence of the virus's existence. The Salazars then used one of them to drop off at National Health Services and buried the rest. As Gunman says the deaths occurred before the day began so they're not counted in the main section--Acer4666 (talk) 10:14, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Reading this, it is logical. Of course I knew the corpses (I meant them) didn't count because they obviously died before the start of Day 3. But it also says they were killed by the Cordilla Virus. I didn't knew the corpses came from the Ukrainian scientists. Thank you for this information :) Osch7 (talk) 12:39, December 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, in Day 3: 8:00pm-9:00pm Hector said "The Ukrainians gave us a demonstration. Bauer delivered one of the bodies to health services". Why they chose the body of someone who could be easily linked to them is a bit of a mystery, but there you go--Acer4666 (talk) 20:52, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

Day 3 SWAT shootout in the prison

 * For those who have the Season 3 DVD or any other way of viewing the episode where Jack plays Russian Roulette, one can easily make out two prisoners being shot by Chase Edmunds. It would then make better sense to add those two deaths and then put the rest of the prisoner's fates in the Unconfirmed section. --Gunman6 (talk) 20:24, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Season 6 Total Valencia Casualties

 * According to a previous post by ASHPD24, here are the total people seen prior to the explosion:

''*Hasan detonate the nuke, blowing up himself, Ray, Samir, Zamil, 7 CTU agents, and 4 terrorists

''
 * The pilot of a news helicopter is found dead, caused by concussion from the nuke


 * We should probably add this along with the 12,000 estimate.--Gunman6 (talk) 07:32, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * They're included in the estimate--Acer4666 (talk) 11:31, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

The named characters above are listed but the CTU agents and remaining men are listed as unknown even though there's a solid amount shown prior to the detonation.--Gunman6 (talk) 11:37, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Carl Benton's death really a sacrifice
I don't know why we're claiming that Ike Dubaku claimed Benton's life when one can survive from being shot in either arm and Benton was still breathing no problem. Plus, it was Benton who ended up taking his life technically since he decided he was going to take out Ike and his minions and half-succeeded in doing so.--Gunman6 (talk) 04:49, February 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. It was Benton lifting his own foot off the landmine that caused his death.  Dubaku wasn't going to kill Benton until Benton would give up the location. Nfl392 (talk) 21:00, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * I must have missed this. While it may not have been Iké Dubaku that killed Carl Benton, I disagree that it was suicide. Whoever planted the landmine is technically his killer - he may have managed to choose his time of death but he didn't kill himself. If he had stepped on it and lifted his foot off instantly would we claim it was suicide?--Acer4666 (talk) 22:18, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, whichever person (living or deceased) who set up the landmine would share the credit of Benton's death having arranged the whole mine field but having been on numerous body counting threads, I can safely say that Benton shares the credit as well because just like one would share a point if they modified or tampered with an explosive as it was about to go off or the various body shield debates, Benton would get the point because he willing stepped off the device after a prolonged period (he didn't have to), taking his own life and five others as well along with him.
 * If he had stepped on and off of it immediately, he would not get the point, the person who planted the trap would. Only when the person is trying to escape from the trap or use it to backfire and kill another person, is it shared or counted as the trapped person's kill as well.
 * If the person is in the trap and trying to escape but will only speed up their death (think of the SAW films), then the point can also be shared. What Benton did here really wasn't much of a stretch from going kamikaze.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:07, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't see what logic you're going off to make these rules myself, but I guess it's a matter of opinion. Would Paul Raines be responsible for his own death for jumping in the way of the bullet meant for Jack?
 * And the Saw films always annoyed the hell out of me. They kept pitching the fact "he finds ways for the victims to kill themselves", by poisoning them, attaching bear traps to their head, etc. which to be honest is just plain murder--Acer4666 (talk) 23:02, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going off of rules on sites such as moviebodycounts and AllOuttaBubbleGum, which deal with this sort of thing in movies and TV.


 * I can't remember if Paul deliberately ran in the way or just got simply got shot but if anyone jumps in the way of an incoming bullet at the last minute, both the shooter and the person sacrificing themselves tend to share the point. But again, only if it's at the last minute. I remember that Jack and the shooter played by Tomas Arana both shared the kill in the end since the Jack interfered with the operation and the shooter of course fired the gun.

Same with body shields, only the person planting a guy in front of them and the shooter share the point if it's all done at the last minute. If neither of these two scenarios play out at the last minute, it only goes to the original cause of death which is the gunman firing the weapon and killing the person.


 * I apologize for bringing up the grotesque moments from SAW, I thought that would be a better way of illustrating this since this is confusing to you and I thought that would clear it up better since it's a trap scenario, albeit far more morbid and icky. Either way, if you don't want to consider it a suicide, it can still be a sacrifice since Benton deliberately jumped off the mine (similar to what Angelina Jolie's character in the 2003 film Beyond Borders does) in order to kill Dubaku and his men.--Gunman6 (talk) 07:01, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Day 7 deaths

 * The crash of the 2 aeroplanes - a couple of times afterwards President Taylor says that Dubaku killed 300 people in the attack. I think that makes the casualties on the ground about 30.
 * Shootout at 12451 Arlington Avenue - Renee Walker says 6 men were killed, and Jack also says all of dubaku's men were killed in the assault. 5 deaths are seen and the store cashier was knocked on the head by Jack, so I think that means he either died from Jack's blow or was caught in crossfire.

Let me know any disagreements to these--Acer4666 (talk) 17:25, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * If 270 were killed in the air, then the 30 would be precise right? (Also do you recall where the 270 figure came from?) 16:37, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * After the crash happens, Tim Woods says that flight 131 was carrying 240 passengers and 10 crew, and it collided with flight 471 carrying 21 people, and there was a high probability of casualties on the ground. In the next episode, Taylor says "Dubaku's already killed 300 Americans". So, it's not entirely clear that all of the 271 people aboard the planes died, or if more than 29 people on the ground were killed, but roughly speaking, 300 died in total, around 270 on the planes and around 30 on the ground--Acer4666 (talk) 17:14, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * So the tally would read 271 crash victims, then on the next line, 29 minimum ground victims, right? I'm only asking because precise figures are better. 20:44, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well it's never stated that there were no survivors from the plane, so any assignment of plane deaths/ground deaths would be arbitrary anyway, but I guess we could assume all 271 passengers died.
 * What confuses the issue further is that in episode 11 Taylor says "there's been 271 american deaths already" or something. I suppose this could be a continuity error contradicting her earlier 300 deaths statement, as well as the ground casualties that were mentioned--Acer4666 (talk) 16:30, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Day 9: 8:00pm-9:00pm Deaths
I have the deaths from tonight's episode added in, but I'm still unsure of what time to put beside Pete, Stosh and Chell's death.

HorrorFan01 (talk) 05:00, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

Didn't kill Jack Bauer anyone? I thought he did at least killing 1 person. --Station7 (talk) 08:57, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

He is listed. --Station7 (talk) 09:02, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

Day 9 Hospital Attack
Why aren't we counting Margot's statement of "hundreds" being killed? Noahcs (talk) 06:54, July 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agreed. We should add at least two hundred deaths to the St. Edwards section. --William (talk) 09:18, July 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is not a specific statement. It could be exaggeration, so I strongly disagree such a statement should be construed to mean "at least 200". Any other examples where "hundreds" or "thousands" was added as a real figure should be scrutinized and removed also. 00:02, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tons of the numbers we use for minimum death counts could possibly be exaggerations. The use of "hundreds" states definitively that at least 2 hundred people died - we only assume someone's statement is wrong if it is specifically contradicted by something else. It's much preferable than listing no casualties for that huge terrorist attack (like we've had to do for the Galvez explosion in Season 7)--Acer4666 (talk) 00:23, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, I noticed that the TV news in episode 9 says that "St. Edmunds Hospital" was destroyed. Sure looked intact to me but if it collapsed twenty minutes later that would account for that many people being dead. --Pyramidhead (talk) 18:54, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Would anyone oppose making it 100 minimum instead of 200? It's really annoying that there's no concrete figure, but it's possible Margot was rounding up for emphasis - just one hundred is still some amount of hundreds, after all. --Pyramidhead (talk) 23:45, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that the rules of pluralisation actually put the minimum figure at 100 - you have one cat, but one and a half cats. I guess she means "a number in the hundreds", so 100+ --Acer4666 (talk) 16:37, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait. Acer above you mention that "tons of the numbers" could be exaggerations. I am uncertain about this, and also I can't recall any time we "rounded" any estimates to a real figure. Do you have any specific examples from prior seasons?
 * Now I don't disagree we should be adding something for this attack, but we need to establish if this has been done before. 17:34, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah I see - this is something I put forward here with regards to a statement of "all the people are dead" and the consensus was that would refer to at least 3 people (note: I since watched the scene of Marwan's convoy and the "at least two" there comes from 2 visible bodies). It seems that lots of the approx/maybe rounded up numbers (ie Marwan's "40 dead in a train crash", Allison Taylor's "300 americans dead" from the plane collision) have been suggested on the talk page and accepted by consensus but not actually put onto the page yet. Other than that, do the "at least 2" deaths of FBI agents from Galvez's bomb not come from a statement of "FBI agents killed" rather than any visual confirmation? I don't believe we really saw any definitely dead people in that scene, just people being wheeled into ambulances.
 * As for other instances of when this will occur, I believe "thousands" of deaths from the Shenyang was mentioned in episode 11 of Live Another Day. It really seems wrong to discount this and put nothing for them, so a minimum of 1,000 seems to me to be the best thing in this and the hospital attack case.--Acer4666 (talk) 18:10, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * The FBI fatalities are based on are based on visual confirmation, not statement. Check the thread above. --William (talk) 13:43, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's actually 22 FBI agents that get blown up by Galvez's explosion; there's survivors seen in the wreckage afterwards though who weren't seen in other shots and weren't wearing the exact same armor so they for certain can be excluded from that terrorist attack kill roster. As for the other attacks, if you can go by a minimum of what's stated, any one can truly take it with a grain of salt as there's no reason to doubt unless anyone chooses to speculate.--Gunman6 (talk) 05:57, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

Day 9: 10:00pm-11:00am Deaths
I added the deaths in from tonight's episode, but I am unsure on two things and if something is wrong, feel free to correct me.

A) I'm unsure of how many of Cheng's henchmen Jack killed during his rampage (I counted 11 of them but the ones killed at the start of his rampage happened so fast, it was hard to keep count).

B) Other than the time of Jiao Sim, Audrey and Cheng's deaths, I am unsure of the time stamps for when Cheng's henchmen were killed.

HorrorFan01 (talk) 08:35, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Audrey's security detail
Audrey's security detail is consist of one limo (which contains the two agents killed with Jiao) and at least one SUV. And Ron said every man on the detail is dead. So that means at least one SS agent was killed off-screen. --William (talk) 13:39, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but if it was off-screen, it isn't meant to be included here. Thief12 (talk) 18:12, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why maybe? I think it's certain that at least one other guy died. And we include deaths no matter on-screen or not, that's why we list the unspecified person whom Alan Tanner had shot. --William (talk) 07:57, July 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Another one, we should add these six guys. --William (talk) 15:27, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll go and add these seven if no one replies. --William (talk) 07:45, July 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure if they were guys who already got capped, but it looks like they're in a different part of the ship. So I think they're good. --Pyramidhead (talk) 07:58, July 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, off-screen deaths are definitely meant to be included here. When was that thermal image shown? Was it when Cheng first discovered that the ship was being infiltrated?--Acer4666 (talk) 11:29, July 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * But it seems we are discussing two groups of people here, William brought Audrey's security agents and then brought up the guys in the ship. The first one seems like speculation to me because as far as I know, we don't see any other escort with Audrey at the time of her death, other than the two dudes with her, and assuming she had a separate driver or someone else would be speculation to me. As for the other guys, well, if they were seen in thermal view, I suppose we should add them. Thief12 (talk) 12:37, July 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * But that SUV was shown all the way to the park (see here and here) so suggesting that SUV had left is more of a speculation to me. And Ron said that every man on that detail was killed. He wouldn't use the word every if only two SS agents were killed, right? --William (talk) 13:03, July 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think one of the two SS agents actually was the driver and I'm not seeing any additional bodies on the thermal scan, everything matches up pretty well so what's the confusion?--Gunman6 (talk) 05:41, July 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * No. Audrey's limo carried two SS agents including Sam Hare and and an unknown guy, could be Leemore Marrett Jr. or not but doesn't matter. So there had to be a driver in the SUV escort.
 * There are at least two dozen guards on that boat so it couldn't match up at all. Maybe this second picture can help to better illustrate. --William (talk) 12:34, July 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * We can just list the two other agents in Uncounted/Unconfirmed because at the end of the day, while we know their entire team was taken out, we also don't know if they're referring to only the field agents or both the field security and the driver crew.
 * As for the satellite feed, there's 17 soldiers shown on there and there were 21 killed by Bauer as well as 2 that were killed by Belcheck, equating to 23 total, so how one can make an argument that there are extra unseen men killed is beyond me since the Russian boat crew clearly took off before it got ugly or was arrested afterwards while taking their sweet time to get Cheng out of there. and Bauer killed more than what was even shown on the feed that Chloe displayed on his phone screen and there weren't any off-screen segments. There's nothing to speculate about here.--Gunman6 (talk) 21:10, July 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe Ron Clark said that "every man" who was with Audrey was killed, so I agree the SUV driver should be added. This is come up before and we added it then.
 * I think the point William is trying to make with the thermal scans is that none of the on-screen kills by Jack and Belchek were in the locations and positions of the 6 bodies shown on the thermal scan. If this is the case, then an extra 6 deaths should be added and attributed to Jack/Belchek--Acer4666 (talk) 21:24, July 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * The guards were moving around constantly and there is no scene that could be determined as where Bauer might've killed them off-screen so definitely not any extra kills that need to be added. The satellite feed wasn't even completely accurate for starters given but what isn't matching up? He killed some soldiers on floors above him as well as when he burst into the kitchen and ran up the stairs.--Gunman6 (talk) 21:30, July 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * ?? Dead bodies don't move around. The only question that needs to be addressed is whether any of Jack's kills could be the dead bodies seen on the thermal scan, your other points are irrelevant.
 * I'm wondering if the stairs where Jack sprays a load of guards with his rifle might be the set of stairs that the six bodies are seen on. It's quite hard to work out where on the ship that takes place--Acer4666 (talk) 23:33, July 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, I checked out the behind scenes feature of the episode, compared with the scenes on-screen, the thermal scan, and pictures of the boat used, and have worked out that Jack's crazy gun spray is done to guards in the area in the bottom of the thermal scan, where those two bodies are on the different levels (those two levels are where the loads of guards were). Can't account for the lack of bodies there, perhaps they fell into the water or something, but it's definitely the same area. Jacks kill after that is then to his right (think you can just see that as the third body on the thermal scan to the right of the one on the higher level). The rest of Jack's on-screen kills then happened in the kitchen and control room, which were shot on a different ship, but none of them on stairs or in the position of the four bodies at the top of the thermal scan. Therefore those four bodies haven't been counted yet and need to be added, I believe.--Acer4666 (talk) 00:53, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sarcasm is not appreciated. I am referring to the guards walking around in the one scene where there are 17 goons seen walking about and the fact that Bauer killed more than what we initially saw makes me suspect that we're overcounting should we add bodies we randomly believe aren't in the same exact place or precise position. Some of the bodies on the right-hand side appear to be close to the locations where Kills #20 and 21 by Jack and the one by Belcheck might've occurred and since he shot some of the guards on two different levels, it's easy to see that some of them would've fallen beneath other barriers or been obscured by satellite feed.

And if they're using two different sets for the one boat, then continuity errors are likely going to arise and can't be counted on as it's already out of universe.--Gunman6 (talk) 05:33, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I didn't make myself clear earlier. Both thermal pictures were shown BEFORE Jack went on his killing spree (thermal 1 is shown at 10:27, with thermal shown around 10:36, before Jack received the bad news). I thought you guys had already watched the episode so you would know what I'm talking about. --William (talk) 06:59, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * We have but apparently we're trying too hard to make sense of this, LOL. So there's 7 deaths (5 by Bauer, 2 by Belcheck that happened during this period) and any of those six bodies could definitely be the various kills since they are on various parts of the ship, especially Bauer's 21st kill which occurs at the same time that Belcheck snipes a mercenary on another unknown part of the ship that's a certain distance if near distance away. This is why I'm also against counting these as new kills; other than everyone finding the continuity bizarre, again, we would've heard additional gunshots and we could easily argue that Belcheck killed some or all of the so-called "extra" people seen on the infernal shot. I'm personally fine with what's seen as that's the best evidence in the end scheme of things and none of these soldiers or the corpses that followed had exact positions seen beforehand and the editing made sure to jump from one corner to the next so in the end, we can't TRULY argue where every mercenary was situated earlier because they're constantly moving around and the editing doesn't make it clear where every EXACT area of the ship truly is because this shot was likely added in post-production and wasn't concise. If the filmmakers are going to be inaccurate by placing the bodies in exaggerated areas, we're going to be wrong by counting the same kills twice.--Gunman6 (talk) 07:15, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * You should be aware that among these 7 deaths, 3 were killed off the boat, the fourth and fifth (whom J&B sniped out) were killed on the port side. The last two were killed in the middle section of the ship, but definitely not the place in the thermal pictures. So it's safe to say that Jack or/and Belcheck killed 6 others during 10:27-10:37. --William (talk) 07:20, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Still, we didn't hear any other silenced gunshots so when would that have happened? It might be in the middle but we don't know "where" and the bodies killed outside of the ship aren't standing in the exact positions they were in the previous shot; in fact, one of the men on top of the crates is in the complete opposite direction in which he fell after being shot. Do we count that as a separate kill? I wouldn't, just list in the "Background information and notes" that the corpses aren't situated right due to simple continuity errors that you see in every action/adventure movie or TV show. This isn't like the Day 1 dock shoot-out with Drazen's men where we know for a fact there were more killed off-screen yet were never shown in complete detail, these are simple dumb mistakes with how the radar is designed and has no baring on Bauer and Belcheck getting any extra points. We also don't know if one of those men by the stairs are supposed to be where the one guy was shot by the port deck or one capped on the top of the ship itself so again it could be any of these guys.--Gunman6 (talk) 08:23, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * I was not being sarcastic at all. You were talking about guards moving round, that is not an issue because we are talking about their positions when they die. Nobody moves after they die.
 * Of course I have seen the episode, but when asked to check things out I just look at the relevant scenes. That's why I asked for the timestamps of the thermals scans, but you didn't answer so I just had to guess.
 * Before the thermals scan of the dead bodies is seen, the kills that happen on-screen are on a completely different part of the ship. This is made quite clear by the thermal imaging seen when the kills happen. There are scenes that happen in the park with Audrey in between Jack boarding the ship and the bodies being seen, so that is presumably when these extra kills take place (so that's why no silenced shots are heard). So yes, an extra 6 deaths to add.--Acer4666 (talk) 11:11, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Again, we don't even know the true layouts of the ship, the thermal imaging scan keeps shifting around and we could still argue that they're Belcheck's kills as well. --Gunman6 (talk) 18:51, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can easily see the layout of the ship, it's really not that hard to follow a moving image. The thermals show the exact layout of "The India", the ship used for filming. The on-screen kills are in a completely different part of the ship to the bodies seen on the thermal imaging.
 * And yes, we cannot say whether Jack or Belcheck killed them. We will reflect that in the killer column.--Acer4666 (talk) 18:55, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking about following what's happening but none of the lay-out seen in Bauer's shoot-outs are matching up with the thermal layout and it's already highly exaggerated with the excessive lighting. And, again, we're talking in-universe, not out-of-universe; we can't get an accurate reading when TWO different ships were used for filming and we haven't studied sets in the past because the filmmakers always contradict material like that (i.e. reshooting the same parts of the CTU sets from different angles to make it look like an alternate room; shooting New York scenes in Los Angeles).
 * And just because they went back to another subplot doesn't necessarily mean another gunfight broke out as Bauer's just now getting on the ship and he had just lost a feed from Chloe's satellite device so he wouldn't have a clear idea of where to go and kill anyone nor would he randomly break protocol when it's already a stealth-based mission; he only storms madly into Cheng's remaining crew because he just lost yet another love interest and didn't feel like there was much to lose at that point then.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:05, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * "none of the lay-out seen in Bauer's shoot-outs are matching up with the thermal layout"?? Of course it matches up, it's footage of the same ship! The second ship was only used for the interior of the kitchen and Cheng's control room. I have studied the layout of sets in the past, in order to work out numbers for this death page. It's what we do - examine what is seen on screen. Them going onto another subplot doesn't necessarily mean more people were killed, true; but dead bodies appearing does, I'm afraid. This happened before Chloe's feed was cut, FYI--Acer4666 (talk) 19:11, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * The behind-the-scenes layouts AREN'T ALL seen off-screen nor are any of the close-ups you randomly found on the internet. And, again, the bodies shown on the crates (and later on bottom right side of the thermal shot) are clearly the same people sniped in the cross-cut sequence but aren't shown lying in the exact same position in which they were previously shown leading this to be a simple continuity error which means the rest of the deck scan must be inaccurate as well. They're meant to be the people we saw him kill but they're again not in the same positions because it's an inaccurate scan, therefore it can't be taken with a grain of salt as something new that we haven't seen before or that was an off-screen kill.
 * You might be looking at the random sets but it's not shown in complete detail in the final cut of the episode so whichever portion they filmed could easily be a different section than what we see on the real-life ship set.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:33, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, once more, his satellite feed was cut off so how would he randomly find some guards who aren't moving when he's trying to no compromise his mission nor be outnumbered by various gunfire and allow Cheng to get away. We can simply list in "Background information and notes" that the bodies don't match up, creating confusion but since the bodies on the crates ARE the same as the ones on the bottom right side of the infernal shot, I'm fairly certain the rest of the bodies are the same as the ones killed on the deck and just because the graphics artists goof up how corpses are arranged doesn't mean they should be counted as separate kills.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:52, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, as I said above (but you're clearly not reading what I am saying), his satellite feed was not cut off, that happened at the same time the thermal shot of the bodies was shown, ie after they were killed.
 * Everything is shown on-screen. It really doesn't take a genius to follow the positions of the bodies. Here is a breakdown, especially for you.
 * Jack and Belchek kill 4 people on the ship before the thermal of the bodies is shown. The first two are sniped on the port side. Chloe brings them up on the thermal, here. I've pointed them out with big red arrows. Notice I've labelled three parts of the ship 1, 2, 3.
 * Next, Chloe spots two more guards on the port side. We see one on her thermal scan, here. Notice (from the numbers) this is the same area as the first two. Jack kills the third man, walks ten steps forward, kills the fourth above him. I put a second red arrow for the approximate location of that man. This all happens on the port side of the ship.
 * Then there are scenes with Audrey, and we do not know what Jack and Belchek are doing, so your speculation about Jack being unable to find people who aren't moving is irrelevant.
 * Then, the scene cuts back to the ship. Then the satellite feed is cut, and Cheng brings up this image. Note the number 1, see how it relates to the other two pictures. This is the rear end of the ship, not the port side. None of the 6 bodies seen here are anywhere near the four bodies Jack took out previously. Understand now?--Acer4666 (talk) 20:07, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Here's the problem once more, the guys who he previously killed on the ports aren't displayed on the following thermal scan and just because you see a red shadow doesn't mean it's a corpse, that's speculation right there. Yes, the other bodies appear on other parts of the map but given the amount of dedication they gave to the first map, why would we assume that it's any more accurate than what we last saw? I see why you wish to believe that these are separate bodies but given how the positions on the ports are WAY too close to the first two that are shot, it's likely that the other shots are also exaggerated as well.
 * Also, since it's on Cheng's computer, it could easily be a complete rotation given that it's from his SIDE of the whole ship and given how there were seven kills, who's to say that's not one of the six previous kills seen? Also, he doesn't catch on right away that some of his men were being offed and could be reading an entirely different overlay because it's on Cheng's computer, not Chloe's.--Gunman6 (talk) 20:29, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, hang on, what are you talking about now? The first two of Jack and Belcheck's kills on dry land? Just because there is a shot where their bodies are not visible, you think we should discount anything else we see? If we took that attitude with continuity errors, then we would not be able to trust anything that happened in 24 ever. We trust everything we see unless there is an explicit reason to call it a continuity error. This is not the case for these six bodies seen on the thermal - there is a period of time where they could have been killed, they're nowhere near the other bodies, absolutely no reason to assume a continuity error then.
 * "just because you see a red shadow doesn't mean it's a corpse" - are you seriously suggesting those things aren't corpses? The things with arms, legs and heads sprawled out? If we took that attitude, we may as well remove every death from this list.
 * Cheng and Chloe are looking at the exact same thermal feed, from the same angle. I carefully numbered the parts of the ship to illustrate this to you. Same angle, same feed, different part of the ship. If it is an entirely different or a complete rotation showing a new part of the ship (which it isn't), then they would still be six new bodies because it's not where the on-screen deaths happened.--Acer4666 (talk) 21:02, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not at all what I implied, I looked at your second pic and there is no body where the bottom arrow is pointed, only an empty bridge with some red and yellow glows, that doesn't mean it's a body (unless you placed an arrow over it obscuring it). And you keep acting like this is for a fact what the ship looks like or they are actual bodies. I don't recall any editor on here being a writer/director on the show last I checked so we can only assume with what we are given.


 * They might be looking at an exact or similar part of the ship but it's not the same computer so how do we know it's the absolute same schematic. It only looks like they took the second portion with the stairs seen in the first initial photo and then zoomed in to make it look like a different angle of the same event that occurred (which again is not out of place for the show given how they tend to reuse the same CTU sets and explosion footage in the past seasons). Why not just ask Jon Cassar on his Twitter feed? It would be so much simpler than jumping to conclusions.--Gunman6 (talk) 21:15, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * That is what the ship looks like, I don't need to be a writer or a director, I just need eyes in my head. here is a wide shot of the whole ship. Doesn't matter whose computer it's on, it's showing the same ship.
 * The image I just linked there, (9x12 thermal 1) was shown after Jack and Belchek's on-screen kills. Note that the areas where the bodies are here have no bodies in them in the first shot. Then the scene changes to Audrey and Kate, and when we cut back there are 6 bodies in the place where previously there were no bodies. Therefore 6 people must have died during that Kate and Audrey scene, as dead bodies can't move.
 * Talk all you like about how unreliable you think the thermal imaging is, it clearly shows an area with no bodies, then the exact same area with 6 bodies. If you think it's speculation to assume that implies 6 people died, then we may as well delete the entire deaths on 24 page because it's all speculation. It's so clear cut - we see no bodies, cut to a different scene, cut back and there are bodies.--Acer4666 (talk) 21:55, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, NOW this image matches up. Had you shown this image back to back, there wouldn't be any discussion. And it's not speculation for all the kills if the kills are confirmed on-screen.--Gunman6 (talk) 22:12, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * OK so you agree that 6 extra need to be added then? The images were shown back to back at the very start of this discussion--Acer4666 (talk) 22:14, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * The time stamp was not made clear.--Gunman6 (talk) 22:18, July 23, 2014 (UTC)