some disputed masterminds
Peter Kingsley was certainly not the mastermind of season 2 (that was Max), and neither were Henderson nor Logan the masterminds of Season 5. I suppose Logan can have this category because of Season 8. 06:26, October 1, 2011 (UTC)
- Let's work together on this, to make this category as accurate as possible. I have added a line to describe what exactly the term "mastermind" should mean, a strict definition that is useful and we can all hopefully agree upon.
- For Season 1, it was Andre and Victor.
- Season 2 is more complicated but I believe there is certainty: Max was the mastermind. Kingsley was explicitly Max's project manager and was definitely not the mastermind. Syed Ali was the mastermind of nothing in my opinion since he was the pawn in 2 different conspiracies, but in his case I'm especially willing to hear arguments against this.
- Saunders is easily the mastermind of Season 3
- And Marwan was Season 4's.
- Logically, Season 5 has to go to Graem (not Logan, Henderson, Cummings, Nathanson, etc), but since Bierko was completely out of everyone's control half the time, I think it's acceptable Bierko can be considered a mastermind as well.
- Season 6 is an unmitigated nightmare, but Fayed, Gredenko & Markov, and Cheng are the masterminds of their respective conspiracies. I'm really on the fence about Phillip Bauer.
- Season 7, I suppose it's acceptable for Juma, Hodges, and Wilson to get this distinction.
- Season 8, Suvarov for sure, I suppose Mehran too, and Logan for sullying everything up on the American side. 08:07, October 1, 2011 (UTC)
I agree with:
- Victor and Andre in season 1
- In season 2 Max,
- in season 3 Saunders
- In season 4 Marwan
- In season 5 both Graem and Bierko (with your reasons)
- With season 6: Fayed, Gredenko, Markov and Cheng
- Season 7: Agree with the names above
- Season 8: Logan and Yuri
--Station7 09:11, October 1, 2011 (UTC)
- This is so complicated I will defer to whatever you guys decide. I'm seeing a bit of arbitrariness (abu fayed is, yet syed ali isn't) but won't get too involved.--Acer4666 17:01, October 1, 2011 (UTC)
- About Ali, you're right Acer. Even though he was being manipulated by a pair of outside conspiracies, he was the mastermind of his own group and did not know he was a pawn. The reason I was defending Fayed having the category is because he overcame for a few hours the people (Russians) who were trying to manipulate him in his case. Ali never did, but, it should exclude him from the category.
- If Ali is eligible, wouldn't Stanton be the mastermind of the first conspiracy that was uncovered to be manipulating Second Wave? There were three separate conspiracies that season overall, and we have already established Ali and Max as the other 2 masterminds. 00:39, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
Overall, I'm not that crazy about the category, mostly because it lends itself to a lot of subjectivity. Plus, I really don't see much of a benefit for having it in the end. The only ones I see clearcut are seasons 1, 3 and 4. Thief12 02:35, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
- Trust me Thief, I do still share the same general sentiments: I can prove it, look at the bottom of Special:ProtectedTitles, that was me, precluding some earlier attempts from happening again. However this time around Illyriarocks has used a term which actually does seem to fit the concept. Overall, do you agree that the definition I laid out in the category description helps reduce subjectivity? Now that a useful term has come up we can strictly define it. 10:17, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
- The definition is fine, and I agree it might reduce subjectivity. But there are seasons that aren't as clearcut as others, which might make it more difficult in some cases. One of my issues was precisely the Syed Ali one that you and Acer brought up. But, for example, wasn't Max working parallel with Alexander Trepkos? or was he the sole leader/organizer of the whole conspiracy? And if we are including Fayed and Ali because they were indeed masterminds of their own plans, wouldn't some of the antagonists of Day 5 lend themselves to the same definition? Beresch, Nathanson, Henderson, maybe even Logan? I'm stretching it, but you probably catch my drift. I won't even go into Day 6, because I haven't seen it in a long time and don't remember all the ramifications. As for Day 7, will we include O'Niel and the other cabal members? why single out Wilson? Thief12 14:50, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding Trepkos: there are 2, possibly 3, very strong reasons from the show which support the idea that Max was the mastermind, and Trepkos and the unnamed third guy—though they outranked Kinglsey—were Max's minions. The first time we see him, he reports to Kingsley that "Max is unhappy". He doesn't say "I'm unhappy" since he's acting as Max's representative. The 2nd point is that Trepkos had no idea about the plan to have Mandy attack Palmer, so he wasn't the mastermind of that either. (The third, more arguable point is Wayne's line to David that "the man" behind the attempt on David's life was arrested. This person is quite obviously Max but there are some fans here who think The Game is canonical and that Max was killed by Jack before Day 3.)
- Fayed and Ali were the topmost conspirators in their plots. Beresch, Nathanson, Henderson, and Logan never had this distinction; they were all answering to superiors during Day 5. (In Day 8 however Logan was masterminding his own conspiracy.)
- O'Niel nor any of the other Prion conspirators (except Wilson) were not masterminding anything during Day 7. The final say went to Wilson. Additionally, Wilson was listed as #1 in the cabal numbering system and Cara Bowden was his intermediary to at least one of the cabalists, Hodges. Logic dictates that if Bowden was the intermediary to all of the other cabalists, the anonymous software interface they used was to keep each cabalist anonymous from each other except Wilson. ... Now, I agree it is true that O'Niel, Marr, and the others helped mastermind the original prion plot, the one Hodges spilled the beans about. But since one can't mastermind a thing that never happened, they wouldn't get the label. They were essentially just financiers of the pathogen who rubber-stamped the new conspiracy as Wilson and his minion Bowden laid it out to them. 20:32, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, but how will we label Graem as the "mastermind" of Day 5 when it is later revealed that Wilson was? Even in Day 6, I think, it is implied that it was Phillip the one that ordered the hits on Palmer, etc. along with the rest of the conspirators (Wilson, Logan, etc.) and that Graem confessed only to cover his father. Thief12 00:22, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
- Thief I had the same confusions in the past, but after re-examining the dialogue like a huge nerd, I was satisfied that the confusion was cleared up. I hope this explanation helps: during Season 5, the person behind Charles Logan was always Graem Bauer. Neither Phillip nor Wilson were ever present or heard or seen or even implied, and it's important not to lose sight of that fact.
- First let's look at Phillip. The only thing we know is his phrase "my role in David Palmer's assassination". Unless I'm horribly mistaken, we never ever learn what that "role" was. It could merely have been complicity, or financial support! That's when I realized that, to claim Phillip's role was superior to Graem's or even important at all, is speculation. We have no facts about Phillip's Sentox role. Therefore we can never claim he masterminded anything, especially when Graem himself was doing all the directing of Logan, and it was Graem's own confession which incriminated him finally.
- Next, Wilson. All we have to work with is Tony's assertion that he was involved in Michelle's death, and Tony's quote that was something like, to paraphrase: [Wilson was] the man behind Charles Logan. Again, there are no details, and Wilson is a nonentity during Day 5 so we can't retroactively determine anything. To say he was the mastermind of Sentox is, similar to Phillip, speculation... he could have similarly been a financier or something less significant. Also, we can neither prove nor disprove that Alan Wilson is "behind Charles Logan" in the sense that, as Chairman of McLennen-Forster, he secretly assisted Marwan in taking out John Keeler with the intention of getting Logan installed... which he was hired to do by Graem, which is strictly a Day 4 conspiracy. It's all speculation with Wilson, too. 05:19, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
- I think you should get over whatever feelings you have about The Game, because you said that as if the majority agree it's not canon. No disrespect or anything, but it's not what you think, it's what's fact. The fact of the matter is, you nor I know anything about the full extent of that Day 2/The Game relation, so I suggest you forget about it and stop trying to act like it didn't happen. And like I say, not trying to be rude here, but I can't stand people who act like things didn't happen and complain about it. --ASHPD24 21:49, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
- Haha once again your sudden hostility is so misplaced and comes from far left field. I clearly said it's an arguable detail, the least significant of three individual details, and I even put it in parentheses. The argument doesn't hinge on that point in any way. Imagine I never mentioned the Game and its tenuous connection to the TV series in my prior post, and my point about Max being mastermind changes not one iota.
- (Since you're persisting on this, you should know that you're 100% dead wrong about my understanding of the Game. So stop saying you understand it. I never claimed "The Game didn't happen". My claim is that it happened in its own continuity, a separate one from the television series. Again, however, this is not important to the discussion at hand.) 22:25, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
- What you're saying is like saying you think a work is terrible but you dn't hate it. It's called an oxymoron. Saying The Game isn't in the same continuity of the show but in one of its own is not only wrong but contradictory. You haven't even played the game, you only know what you read about, and you don't think the Game is canon based on vague speculation. I know it's canon based on evidence I can back up, not "I think" opinions. --ASHPD24 23:19, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
- ASHPD24 because Game topic is not related to mastermind discussion, I pasted it on Talk:24: The Game and replied there. 05:19, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
Jack stated that Kingsley helped smuggle in the nuke, but Ali stated that the bomb was a "Second Wave operation only". Based on his conversation with Max in 2x23, as well as dialogue between Alex Hewitt, Jack and Sherry, it could be safely assumed that Kingsley was one of the "co-masterminds" behind the day's events. User:Illyriarocks 4:49, Oct 6, 2011 (UTC)
- Kingsley certainly was one of the conspirators, involved in the early stages of the plot, but he answered to Max and we do already know that Max hired him after the plot was conceived. 17:48, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
New ones? Wald, Stanton...
I've been browsing through those Antagonist pages (Day 8 antagonists, etc) and going straight to the top of each grouping to see if this category needs any additions and subtractions.
Ones we do not need to add:
- Ira Gaines isn't eligible because he was always clearly working for the Drazens. Obvious, but worth spelling out.
- Ramon Salazar and Hector aren't eligible in my opinion as "masterminds" because they didn't plot anything except a jailbreak and an illegal auction. All their evil ideas were actually planted there by Jack anyway for the sting.
- Conlon/Reiss/McLennen tried to rush a criminal coverup, but it wasn't a terrorist conspiracy, and fairly certain you'll agree it would be dumb to label these bumbling assholes as "masterminds".
- Phillip Bauer's role in season 5 is completely unspecified, and in season 6 he was hired by Cheng. Poppa Bauer was a fairly independent antagonist, but I'm not seeing any of his actions worthy of a "mastermind" label.
- Allison Taylor became Charles Logan's puppet during Season 8. All the evil crap she rubber-stamped were his ideas... he was masterminding the American corruption at the end of the season.
- Vladimir Laitanan: smalltime scum-bag, didn't mastermind anything in the plots. Couldn't even mastermind himself away from an angry woman with a butter knife.
- Sergei Bazhaev might seem like a good choice for this category, but he was very explicitly working for Dana Walsh (herself an intermediary). He always knew Red Square was muscle for shadowy Moscow people. I consider Bazhaev to be in a position analogous to Ira Gaines.
Ones I think we do need to add:
- Joseph Wald since he was certainly the leader of the homegrown terrorist cell. Yes, he was being manipulated, but he did not know it, and within the structure of that specific terrorist plot, he answered to no one but himself.
- Roger Stanton, he masterminded the whole "let's give Palmer's administration some balls" plot. That was a very big treasonous conspiracy in itself, even though Max/Trepkos/Kingsley were using Stanton's group.
- Anatoly Markov was pretty clearly Gredenko's co-conspirator—neither his subordinate nor his superior. They were mastermind partners, just like Andre and Victor Drazen.
- Samir Mehran. Mastermind of the second Kamistan conspiracy. To me Mehran is the most obvious missing one so far. (See also Farhad in the list below)
Ones I'm not 100% about:
- Bruce Carson: do we have enough facts to state that he was a mastermind, considering there was all those unspecified "others" sponsoring him and Pollock?
- Farhad Hassan: well, the first Kamistan conspiracy was confusing when you try and pin down masterminds. Wasim, Amiri, and a bunch of other people helped start the plot, too, so I'm doubtful about this one.
- David Brucker: I think he does belong, since he converted Rob Weiss to the Dark Side and directed the whole "kidnap Hassan" conspiracy. Any opinions on him?
07:22, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
- Hi, glad you asked. I disagree with #1, because it was obviously Pollock's game, Carson was just there for muscle.
- #2 is hard to pin down, because Farhad was obviously a co-conspirator of Wasim, Amiri, and the other IRK officials, so I think we should add him and them as well.
- #3, definitiely include. Brucker was clearly the one who thought of the idea, and those mercs were his men.
- Cheers. --ASHPD24 14:08, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the onces that we don't need to add, because you are right about everything. Brucker should be added. He mastermind that plan, which killed Omar Hassan later in the process.
I'm not sure if Bruce Carson should be added. I think he and Reed more discussed what to do about the situation in to killing Wayne Palmer. However, when Tom Lennox tried to escape by killing him and himself by gas, Pollock said that they should be fast, while Carson was angry, right? So I call it a maybe. --Station7 14:56, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
- I think I disagree with the Joseph Wald one - just by comparing to Ira Gaines. As Jack said to Wald, "they didn't just tell you where to hit, they told you when". Wald was told when and where to hit, just as Gaines was told who to kill and how to do it. I'm sure if Wald's plan had failed, there would've been an angry Mamud Rasheed Faheen on the phone saying how disappointed he was, just as there was Andre Drazen speaking to Gaines. I don't see the distinction--Acer4666 (talk) 17:19, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
- The difference is this. Gaines was very explicitly working for the Drazens. Wald was the head of his own crew, not working for anyone. He was only just told by Second Wave where to hit because they shared common interests, just like Ali didn't work for Kingsley, but was supplied the nuke by the consortium. Gaines was in it for purely the money involved, and thus was employed. Wald was doing it because it's what he believed in, not because he worked for Second Wave. Gaines was not the head of that group of terrorists, just a cell of them, much like the many subcell leaders during Day 4. Wald was the head of his own cell rather than just a small part of a large group. That's why I think Wald should be included, where Gaines shouldn't be. --ASHPD24 18:10, November 4, 2011 (UTC)