Editing Forum:Main page redesign, fonts, + a million other things

{{Forum|The Situation Room}}
So I started a mirror wiki to experiment with the digital clock and title fonts - everything kind of snowballed and I made it a test bed for a ''ton'' of different ideas I've had recently. I figured I would keep it in one thread so we can talk about them individually, they all tie together in different ways.

Feel free to visit, mess around, test things out! I'm really excited to start updating the site for the new series --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 00:22, October 23, 2016 (UTC)

:Not sure I'm using this page correctly, but I just wanted to comment I'm usually critical of big changes but your changes all look great. Except the "Beyond" button could possibly be "Extended Universe" or so for easier understanding. Although maybe that's a bit too long. I think we should have an updated main icon. I'm referring to the one with Jack, David Palmer and Chloe. We should have one that adds the new lead Eric Carter to them. And maybe Tony Almeida, as he appeared in the third-most episodes? Maybe five characters would be too much, though. But all the icons and stuff look splendid. I'm all for these changes. [[User:Toranosuke Almeida|Toranosuke Almeida]] ([[User talk:Toranosuke Almeida|talk]]) 21:20, October 23, 2016 (UTC)

::These are amazing changes, I support everything wholeheartedly. Especially the main page redesign and the excellent 24-font for time-stamps etc. inside the episode guide text. Thank you for doing all this Pyramidhead!
::Would you be opposed to making the text for New Page template a bit larger? It's easily overlooked so small. Also is there any way to keep a table for the character Live Appearances? {{User:Blue Rook/Sig}} 16:31, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

::: These are indeed amazing changes. Very slick and modern-looking. I'm at work now, so I'll make sure to check them out more calmly when I'm at home, but everything I saw, I loved. Thanks for the hard work, Pyramidhead. [[User:Thief12|Thief12]] ([[User talk:Thief12|talk]]) 16:47, October 25, 2016 (UTC)
:Thanks all! Good to hear :) Blue Rook about the table, I think the fact that it's such a wide (or collapsible) table is why it seems to disappear on mobile. It would be nice to be able to keep it arranged like it is now; I was going to try a "hybrid" approach where the list items are side-to-side for each season but I thought it would break down when you have the modifiers (mentinoed only, etc). I'll try it out and see if possibe --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 23:25, October 25, 2016 (UTC)
::Actually, now that I think about it - every character's specific episode appearances (for all the ones with enough to matter) are on [[Character appearances]]. I get the appeal of seeing the "blocks" each character occupies in each season, but even if it's not possible to show that on the actual page it ''is'' still available elsewhere - maybe we could link to the particular row on [[Character appearances]] from the "Episodes" table on the new template? --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 23:34, October 25, 2016 (UTC)
:::[[:w:c:24dupe:Jack_Bauer#Appearances|Example]] - click one of the episode counts in the right table --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 00:01, October 26, 2016 (UTC)
::Echo the awesome you've put in! I like lots about the proposed changes, but not everything - I'll try and put some thoughts down in the different sections.--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 22:10, October 26, 2016 (UTC)

=== Main page redesign ===
The main page is ''old'' and it's starting to show. I've never been a huge fan of the "portals" to be honest, they seem like an unnecessary barrier to the actual content - and two of them lead to ugly statistics pages. I decided to simplify it into three hubs with links below so you can immediately dive in. Besides that I also completely redesigned the countdown, the poll, and the other boxes.
:''Link: [[:w:c:24dupe:Main_Page|Main Page]]''
::I agree the main page needs an overhaul, and like the new design you're proposing!--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 22:10, October 26, 2016 (UTC)

Hi everyone! So I wanted to propose a few changes to the main page and see what everyone thought about it. So currently the Drama Show and Fox shows banner show up on the left rail. I would like to move them to the bottom so that it looks like the picture provided That way the page won't have as much empty space. I also created a new background skin that I think would look cool. Finally, I'd like to update the poll by using Pollsnack since they work better on mobile and you can customize them anyway you want. The example below is from another wiki and I can make it for you or I can provide you with a guide on how to do it yourselves.  Let me know what you guys think and if you need help with anything else! :) 
<gallery align:center>
New_Main_Page_Banner_Location.png
24backgroundskin.jpg
Main_Page_Poll_Sample.png
</gallery>

[[User:Witnessme|Witnessme]] ([[User talk:Witnessme|talk]]) 19:38, February 6, 2017 (UTC)
:I'm a little curious as to how the full width show banners would save space - in the screenshot it seems like they've replaced the twitter module and collapsed it down to have no content. How would the other parts of the main page be affected?
:I checked out the new poll thing on [http://mercy-street.wikia.com/wiki/Mercy_Street_Wiki Mercy Street wiki] and see why you opted to upload a pic rather than link - it does not function very well! :P It takes about 3 seconds longer to load than anything else, and comes up greyed out with a video style "play" button that you have to click on to view it. I'm interested in making the main page more mobile friendly, but once the solution works satisfactorily!
:In terms of the new background, I have to say I personally prefer our current one. I think the new one introduces too many colours (atm we have reddish/yellow and blue colours, this introduces greens, browns and bright yellow which I think clashes a little).
:Thanks for the effort of suggesting these new features though! If any of them can be reworked slightly to address my concerns, I'd be interested to hear--[[User:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|Talk]]) 20:00, February 6, 2017 (UTC)

:Okay so for the banners being moved, they wouldn't effect the Twitter module at all. Would you mind if I changed that on the main page so I can show you? You can always revert it back if you don't like the way it looks. [[User:Witnessme|Witnessme]] ([[User talk:Witnessme|talk]]) 20:03, February 6, 2017 (UTC)

::Okay so I went ahead and moved the banners. Now I personally think it looks better but it also gives you that chunk of space to expand a bit. Like add a character gallery, videos, etc. Of course, like I said, you don't have to but I thought i'd show you the outcome anyways. [[User:Witnessme|Witnessme]] ([[User talk:Witnessme|talk]]) 21:18, February 6, 2017 (UTC)
:::Hmm..you said that the edit would mean we "won't have as much empty space" - but all that's happened is you've replaced the banners with a load of empty space - then moved them down. There is definitely much more unused space than before. The banners fit nicely into that gap that is now there--[[User:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|Talk]]) 21:29, February 6, 2017 (UTC)

::Okie okie! Thanks for listening to my ideas! 21:50, February 6, 2017 (UTC)

=== Episode pages - fonts ===
I personally think this looks ''awesome'' - we can replace the digital clock notes and the title card text with the real thing. There's also a Day 9 variant. These would be easy to switch over with the bot if we wanted - I also added a "following" template to standardize the "The following takes place" notes

:''Link: [[:w:c:24dupe:Day 1: 12:00am-1:00am|1x01]], [[:w:c:24dupe:Day 2: 3:00pm-4:00pm|2x08]], [[:w:c:24dupe:Day 9: 11:00am-12:00pm|9x01]], [[:w:c:24dupe:Day 9: 2:00pm-3:00pm|9x04]]''

::I have to admit I find this a bit ugly. I think the mix of three different colours of text doesn't look great, and I especially don't like the links within the yellow writing as they are essentially "hidden" links (you can't see that they're links). The LAD stuff isn't ''as'' bad, as the colour actually matches the on-screen text but the other colours are off (too yellow). However I like the idea of the page titles being in the 24 font, but the usual text colour--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 22:10, October 26, 2016 (UTC)
:::Good point about links - any better [[:w:c:24dupe:Day 1: 12:00am-1:00am|like this]]? As for the colors I have had a hell of a time figuring out what the vanilla clock color should be; it seems to change in every screenshot I pull up. Certainly room for changes there, I just made it a little paler - any better on your end now? I just think it looks ''so cool'' amidst the episode summaries - really want to make it work for everyone --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 01:10, October 27, 2016 (UTC)
::::The colour still seems too yellow to me, is it possible to alter it to make it paler? I;m not sure about the dotted lines under links (looks kind of old fashioned website style) - perhaps we could just not link when we use that extra font (as it's just used to replicate on-screen text). Does having that font in blue for links not work?--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 15:53, November 5, 2016 (UTC)
:::::Looks very, very weird to have parts of it in blue. We ''could'' just not link, but then we're back where we started - if it's all going to look uniform, there's no advantage in using plain text over links that people can still find. I don't know - does anyone else have a problem with links not being "obvious"? I think the font standing out is enough to indicate that there's probably something to click on --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 00:49, November 6, 2016 (UTC)
:So what's the verdict? I think most are in favor of the new clocks/titles, correct? Acer if you'd like I could come up with some way to keep the current version for your own CSS. I've tried messing with the yellow some more but any paler and it starts to look very unlike the show. Have you found a better color yet? --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 10:48, November 27, 2016 (UTC)
::I mean, I really don't like it but I guess this comes down to personal taste. I would prefer hidden links to the dotted underline style if this gets implemented. I'm not going to alter the styling on my personal css, I need to see how the site looks for everyone to spot any dodgy glitches!--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 12:23, November 27, 2016 (UTC)

=== Appearances template ===
I originally proposed this a while back and thought I'd revisit. A major issue I recently found with the current template: It doesn't appear on mobile, at all. In fact the entire section and the h2 apparently just get dropped. This new one fixes that, and also it lets us keep track of mentions, photo & video appearances, etc. I think it should be treated as a corollary of the episode Appearances lists - everything you can link to from one should appear on the other. (I went over the other advantages in the [[Forum:New appearances template|original thread]].) Added a logo so the actual seasons stand out clearer, and an episode count table (optional) since the parentheses numbers can be misleading. Going back on forth on whether to use the full titles or not. 
:''[[:w:c:24dupe:Template:Appearances/examples|Examples]]''
:''Link: [[:w:c:24dupe:Jack Bauer#Appearances|Jack Bauer]], [[:w:c:24dupe:Los Angeles#Appearances|Los Angeles]], [[:w:c:24dupe:Solarz|Solarz]], [[:w:c:24dupe:Miriam Bender|Miriam Bender]]''
::I also am not sure on this. Having appearances stacked vertically is a bit of a waste of space on the browser version, and I'm sure there is a better alternative for making them mobile friendly. I am for making the site better for mobile users, but not at the expense of the browser version of the site. I think the current appearances are more space efficient and look better than bulleted lists of text.--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 22:10, October 26, 2016 (UTC)
:::It may be a bit taller for certain characters but I think for the vast majority of characters - the ones who show up in a handful of episodes, or [[:w:c:24dupe:Miriam Bender|just one book]] - it's a ''much'' better use of space than the current setup. Also, there's something to be said for being able to catalogue all the different mentions - or photo appearances, or video - which isn't possible at the moment, short of describing each one in the notes. For the ones with really long lists there's an option to have the top bullet, or - just added - you can put it into a scrollbox: [[:w:c:24dupe:Template:Appearances/examples|link]] --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 01:10, October 27, 2016 (UTC)
::I'm very against scroll boxes for this, having two scroll bars on a page is a nightmare to navigate in my opinion. Working mentions of characters into the appearances templates seems like a hugely complicated list that will be difficult to understand. I really like the visual of the appearances templates we have and to replace that with a simple list seems like a step backwards.
::As for mobile users, is there any way to have a different template display on mobile pages?--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 15:57, November 5, 2016 (UTC)

=== Newpage text ===
The newpage buttons I'm looking at right now (Actor, Character, Your personal user page) is just terrible. As far as I can tell it hasn't been changed in ten years! Made a new one with a ''lot'' more options and that actually fits in the space
:''Link: [http://24dupe.wikia.com/wiki/Asdf?flow=create-page-create-box&action=edit&tracked=true New Page]
::These are awesome - love them!--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 22:10, October 26, 2016 (UTC)

::I agree. The way it's set up now isn't ''horrible'' (personally I just plug in everything to source editor), but this new system seems to simplify it and make it easier when you're working with new pages. [[User:TykTrope59|TykTrope59]] ([[User talk:TykTrope59|talk]]) 22:06, December 17, 2016 (UTC)

=== New episode tables, sidebar ===
General design tweaks, colors, etc. I redesigned the tables on each season page, giving the image more prominence and better using the width. As for the sidebar, I still strongly feel we should break the sidebar into separate templates for each page type. It's so much easier than the alternative, having to remember and apply three different modifiers for stacked or not stacked, subgroups or no subgroups, etc.

Couple random sidebar tweaks as well:
*New sections for Government service, Military service - not sure if conflict with Profession/Affiliation
*Combined birthdate/place/cause into Born and Died fields
:''Link: [[:w:c:24dupe:Season 1|Season 1]], [[:w:c:24dupe:Category:Characters|Characters]]
::I prefer the old style tables - perhaps this is just personal preference but I think the design is a lot better. I'm sure you've suggested this sort of change to the episode tables elsewhere and it didn't happen. Similarly, for the old sidebar debate, I'd prefer to continue that discussion [[Forum:New_mobile-friendly_infobox|where we left off]]--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 22:10, October 26, 2016 (UTC)

=== Monobook friendly ===
Finally - all this is completely monobook friendly. We haven't been very good about keeping up with the old skin here, so I wanted to be sure it works as well on both.
:''Link: [http://24dupe.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_Bauer?useskin=monobook Jack Bauer]
::What isn't working on the current style in monobook? Hopefully we can try and fix it!--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 22:10, October 26, 2016 (UTC)
:::Just random things that pop up, as I recall we put a lot of new styles into Wikia.css rather than common so different things don't render properly from time to time. For instance the image thumbnails have weird border defects atm --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 01:10, October 27, 2016 (UTC)

=== Advanced editor ===
I've reverted the editor to black-on-white but I really want to start using the new color-coded editor Wikia added: [http://24dupe.wikia.com/wiki/Kim_Bauer?action=edit] [http://24dupe.wikia.com/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css?action=edit] It helps a lot to see where brackets are closed and lets you search and replace. Seems we would have to request that it be turned on specifically though. --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 04:27, November 13, 2016 (UTC)
:I don't see any colours on the Kim Bauer editing page you've linked to? It's just white on grey--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 12:12, November 13, 2016 (UTC)
::Ah this seems to be a user preference thing. I personally don't want it for my editing but if it can be turned on without stopping people using the old style then that should be ok--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 12:14, November 13, 2016 (UTC)

I like the new background too (having Jack and Eric Carter), but have to say I'm not too keen on the new wordmark/logo. The new text seems to be from the Legacy promos, which as far we know may never be seen on screen so seems a bit drastic to switch to that now. I like the current wordmark, has the "24" logo as it appears on screen for the majority of the series.

Hope you don't think I'm being too negative: I think this work is awesome, but want to make sure we make any big layout changes after thinking it all through etc.--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 22:10, October 26, 2016 (UTC)
:Absolutely! :) --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 01:10, October 27, 2016 (UTC)

== Progress ==
Since the main page was approved by everyone I'm going to get working on that + the overall theme - bear with any bugs, they'll be fixed very soon! --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 18:05, November 3, 2016 (UTC)
:Changes look really good! Some minor niggles I have about the theme changes so far: I have to caveat by saying some of these are really minor and pedantic, but one thing I find on Wikia is you can really tell when a Wiki has tried to customise because things are just ''very slightly'' not right and it's really annoying! Probably one of my biggest resistances to a full customisation of the site is this effect - as before, these little niggly things weren't around.
# The number font is very slightly off in certain places: [https://postimg.org/image/gh52fq7oj/ examples here]. The text appears off from where the highlighting and underlining thinks they are positioned. Also on user pages showing edit counts, the numbers appear uncomfortably close to the "edits on this wiki" text, which I think is also due to the offset text. Additionally, the commas are nearer to the proceeding character rather than the preceding character, as commas should be. This may be an issue with the font you've grabbed, don't know if you're able to edit that font file.
# The sidebars and table headings are now gradient shaded. I personally prefer the old style of a solid colour. I think it's because it sticks out as different to the rest of the styling on buttons etc. Note the edit buttons are also shaded, but in a more subtle way. If the shading could match that exactly, or be one solid colour to match the other buttons exactly, then I don't think it would stick out so much. Also (I can't verify this because the sidebars have all changed) but it seems as the though the sidebar heading text has got bigger and now seems a little bit squashed into the heading? Do we have an old sidebar to compare?
# We now have a twitter account, featured on the main page! That's cool, but who has access etc.? What should we be using it for and posting on it? Possibly a separate forum to discuss this.
# Have you altered the styling on the wiki-navigation slightly? Not sure how it's different, but it has the "not quite lined up right" feel of customised css. The default styling we had before didn't quite have this, I don't think.
# The borders around pictures in galleries (e.g. [[Unnamed Day 1 characters]]) have turned bright blue, rather than the white they used to be. Is this intentional? Looks a bit weird!
# Do you know what to add to personal css so that the editing screen goes back to black text on a white background? That has changed for me (to white text on grey) along with these css changes.
:Again, apologies for only mentioning the negatives - all the other changes I really like! The wiki looks awesome and fresh now, a great facelift for the main page--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 15:49, November 5, 2016 (UTC)
::#Noticed these - in fact, I actually ''did'' have to edit the font file so that the digits stayed in place on the timer! No idea how to fix the underline, seemed like a minor thing but would be nice. Also I'll look at the user page issue.
::#Title is the exact same size, I didn't make any changes beside the shading. You can try using the button gradient below, I think it doesn't look as good as the current one though. In any case we will (hopefully) be switching over to the new infoboxes soon
::#Yes! Sorry, meant to do a new post but got sidetracked. I'm posting from it at the moment and lining up the birthdays posts to go out automatically but anyone who wants access is more than welcome
::#Not sure what you mean - it's the menu at the top right? Didn't make any changes other than the menu items
::#Not intentional - will fix this!
::#I'll fix that! --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 22:39, November 5, 2016 (UTC)
 table.sidebar th.title {
   background-color: #012e59;
   background-image: -moz-linear-gradient(top,#02488b 35%,#012e59 65%);
   background-image: -webkit-gradient(linear,0% 0%,0% 100%,color-stop(35%,#02488b),color-stop(65%,#012e59));
   background-image: -o-linear-gradient(top,#02488b 35%,#012e59 65%);
   background-image: -ms-linear-gradient(top,#02488b 35%,#012e59 65%);
 }
:::Thanks! Another quick thing: H3 headings seemed to have lost their bold, and just look like regular text now. Is this intentional, and is it possible to revert back to how they were?--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 22:55, November 7, 2016 (UTC)
::::You said you didn't make any sidebar changes except the shading but [https://postimg.org/image/532jrc71p/ here] is a comparison showing that the spacing has also changed. Lots of extra styling changes have been made with this overhaul, more than what was agreed upon above, and I can't tell what is intentional and what is not--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 15:50, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
:::::I honestly don't see the difference in height. I did not intentionally change this, but if you insist I can add a little to the line height. --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 20:12, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
::::I've put the table and sidebar headers back to how they actually were before, size and colour--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 00:21, November 13, 2016 (UTC)
:::The problem as I see it is that you pageblanked all of Wikia.css, and then moved some (but definitely not all) of the styling rules to common.css, which obviously is gonna break a whole load of stuff. What was the plan for migrating the current styling rules (as it seems you didn't think this would break things?). I'm imagining that I'm now going to be forever discovering stuff appearing different due to all the css being deleted--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 00:47, November 13, 2016 (UTC)
::::It's significantly ''less'' broken, actually - putting everything in Wikia meant that half the tables and templates didn't render correctly on Monobook. I was careful to keep all the rules that are still in use and eliminate ones that aren't, like the research file tables. I didn't catch the bold h3's, it appears that normal font weight is now the Wikia standard for those. If you find entire pages that are broken I'll absolutely start over with the old styles - but these are very trivial issues that are easy to fix. --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 04:15, November 13, 2016 (UTC)
:::Please don't change things that have not been agreed upon - what is trivial to one person is not always trivial to another. I would have copied across the broken monobook things into common as needed to fix the (already broken) monobook stuff. Now that it's been done this way I suppose we may as well leave it and fix the new broken stuff as we come across it--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 11:50, November 13, 2016 (UTC)

== Voting ==
Before I do anything more on what we discussed I want to take people's votes, make sure there's some kind of consensus. Please add your opinion below, and by all means add to the plus or minus items! I want as many people to weigh in as possible.
=== New appearances template ===
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsible-collapsed">
'''Proposal:''' Replace the navbox-style [[Template:Appearances|appearances template]] with a bulleted in-universe chronological list, similar to those used on the Star Wars and Harry Potter wikis (examples: [[:w:c:starwars:Naboo#Appearances|1]], [[:w:c:harrypotter:Tom_Riddle#Appearances|2]]). Also, expand each section to include '''all''' mentions, photo/video appearances, voice-only, and so on in addition to live appearances as it currently stands. Examples: [[:w:c:24dupe:Template:Appearances/examples|here]]
:{{plus}} Allows us to preserve chronological information, easily showing a character's earliest and latest appearance in the fictional timeline
:{{plus}} Can be extended for use on almost all in-universe pages: locations, objects, titles, organizations
:{{plus}} More exhaustive; documents every single appearance or mention of particular person/concept in all released media
:{{plus}} Episode totals table, retaining "Live appearances only" aspect of current template
:{{plus}} Far better use of space for few-appearance and EU-only characters: compare [[:w:c:24dupe:Mike_Roker|1]] to [[Mike Roker|2]]
:{{plus}} Mobile-friendly(?)
:{{minus}} Can be much longer on the page than the current template for certain characters
:{{minus}} Loss of ability to visually depict a character's "arc" within seasons
:{{minus}} Somewhat misleading organization; i.e. showing several post-Season 1 entries for Teri Bauer that are mentions/photo only (mitigated by episode totals table?)

*'''SUPPORT'''. Incidentally: I believe the reason the current template disappears on mobile has to do with the collapsible box template. If it were simply open by default and impossible to show/hide, it would work much the same as on desktop. However, then you would have to scroll side to side on the device to see the entire table. --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 02:06, December 17, 2016 (UTC)
*'''OPPOSE''': I don't think the chronological list is such a good idea. It will create too long of a list for many characters who appeared the longest and locations that appeared the longest, including Jack Bauer, Tony Almeida, Chloe O'Brian, David Palmer, Mike Novick, CTU, cities and such. It's best to have these articles in navboxes for easier read and we can click on show on certain navboxes to look them up to avoid the frustration of longer reads and such. [[User:BattleshipMan|BattleshipMan]] ([[User talk:BattleshipMan|talk]]) 03:29, December 17, 2016 (UTC)
*'''OPPOSE''': One of the things I like the most about the current box is the ability to see when and where a specific character appear in a specific season, and that's missing in the new format. Also, it isn't that visually appealing in terms of appearance and length. I like the way the seasons are highlighted as opposed to EU stuff, but that's just a minor thing when compared to what we lose; or at least in terms of what I would lose from the current format. If it were me, I'd rather look for an alternative more equivalent to what we have now. [[User:Thief12|Thief12]] ([[User talk:Thief12|talk]]) 14:54, December 17, 2016 (UTC)
</div>
====Discussion ====
[[File:Appearancemobile.jpg|thumb|right|200px]]
I don't really want to vote on this because I don't think the poll should replace a discussion, but I'd make the point that I've just tried this on mobile and it ''doesn't'' work. The show/hide buttons don't work so you can't see the episodes they were in, the 24 icons are up on their own line, the season totals box doesn't appear and any with their own scroll box (eg Tony Almeida, Christopher Henderson) don't display anything at all.--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 10:48, December 17, 2016 (UTC)
:Very odd - I've had it work perfectly. And not trying to replace a discussion - just wanted to get a feel for whether this is something worth pursuing, and signs point to "no" :) I'll figure out what's up with the pic though --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 19:48, December 17, 2016 (UTC)
::That's Template:Appearances/examples right? For some reason there are serious issues emulating mobile on all the template space pages. On [[:w:c:24dupe:Kim Bauer|Kim Bauer]] I see just the bulleted list with none of the show/hide toggles shown --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 19:58, December 17, 2016 (UTC)
:::Hmm, I realised that the shot I took was from "reader mode" in safari on the iphone. Yeah I can't seem to view non-mainspace articles in anything but the Oasis skin from a mobile browser, in which case it appears exactly as it does on desktop. For mainspace articles like that Kim one, I also see no show/hide links, and the episodes aren't linked except for random ones.
:::I'm pretty clueless about mobile - is there a css page we can edit to alter stuff? I feel like first thing to do is alter the colour theming and stuff! It feels like we should be able to just have a longer thinner table for mobile users, if that is technically possible--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 20:39, December 17, 2016 (UTC)
::::Good - the unlinked ones are cause those articles don't exist on the other wiki, so that's normal. There's currently no way to customize how the mobile site looks, every site loads a stripped down white and blue version with most of the CSS/JS removed. I still think it's going to be way too wide on mobile screens with 6 episodes across side by side. There seems to be a desire to keep that arrangement though - I'm trying to figure out how to modify my new template to show them that way (like in the navbox) ''and'' degrade to a bulleted list on mobile --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 20:43, December 17, 2016 (UTC)

So I went back to work on this and came up with something I think is ''really'' great - I figured out how to keep the "box" style with the new lists. It's top-to-bottom instead of left-to-right but now it can collapse to two columns or one if need be so no more clearing everything to use the full page width. ''And'' on mobile it reduces to just the bulleted list, with the grayed-out episodes removed completely. So this lets us track every reference chronologically (like I wanted) and keeps the "block" overview that's good about the current one! [[:w:c:24dupe:Appearances/examples|Examples]] --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 08:56, December 20, 2016 (UTC)
:Also figured out how to tweak JS so it only counts "live" appearances for the totals - so the number of parentheses lines up with the actual episode counts. The total number excludes mentioned-only items --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 09:00, December 20, 2016 (UTC)
::I think this is still way messier than the template we have at the minute. When you look at the appearances section now you see all the EU stuff perfectly enumerated and pride of place, then you have to go clicking to see anything about when they appeared in the actual show. Plus having a left aligned list that pops up into some full width boxes looks a bit naff. And we have already discussed having mentions and non-live appearances in these templates and it was rejected, it's very confusing to see Teri Bauer having an "appearance" in the seasons after her death--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 13:26, December 20, 2016 (UTC)
Turns out to use the existing version on mobile you can't use ''any'' templates or subtemplates categorized under "Navigation" or "Notice." Assuming we want to actually create a completely new Navbox template just to get it to show up, here's how it would look compared to my new one:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/24dupe/images/c/c9/Untitled-15.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/400

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/24dupe/images/5/55/Untitled-19.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/400?cb=20161220214907

And here's desktop:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/24dupe/images/b/bb/Untitled-17.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/700?cb=20161220214906

About ease of use: if someone is in enough things that the Pre-Season 1 section is that long, the navbox table is likely collapsed by default, anyway. So you're going from one click-through on the existing template to one click-through on the new one. It's a small price to pay IMO in order to get all these entries in chronological order vs. having them in release order and seeing ''every other EU item'' on the page for no reason. As for mentions etc, if everyone really doesn't want them, fine - but I think with the (0) it's clear enough that the person doesn't actually show up in the later seasons. --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 22:28, December 20, 2016 (UTC)
:I think this is an illustration of the fact that this site is not designed well for mobile users at all: we're completely unable to make css rules or custom js to make stuff appear nicer to mobile users. That's a limitation of the Wikia platform itself, and not really something we can overcome. What you're suggesting is to degrade how it appears for desktop users for the sake of mobile users, which is something I'm very opposed to, especially since we're unable to properly control the mobile look. E.G. in your mobile examples, we would of course make the text smaller and have fewer episodes per row for the vertical format.
:Seeing every other EU item is something I think is good and helpful about the appearance template. Casual visitors have no idea what "Trinity", "One Shot" refers to, so putting them there with no context is confusing, but with our current template you see that it's a novel, and what other sort of extended universe media exists. It reinforces the context of the EU stuff as that is not well known about compared to the TV show.
:Presumably you're not going to suggest replacing all our navboxes with bulleted lists in order that mobile users can see them? Perhaps appearances arent so crucial for mobile users. Or, is it possible to add to the appearances template a bulleted list, and using some sort of custom css/js to display:none it, so it doesn't appear for desktop but the mobile skin (which fails to load the custom css/js) will display it? It's a hack, but our hands are tied on how we control the mobile skin. However I feel strongly that we shouldn't short change desktop users for the sake of attempting mobile to look nice (which it doesn't anyway...can't even get our wiki colours on there!)--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 01:07, December 21, 2016 (UTC)
::I don't see it as shortchanging the desktop version at all, honestly; with the boxes now it functions almost exactly the same and IMO looks much better in how it takes up space on the article. You can see the seasons and other appearances ''and'' the episode counts without having to open anything if you don't want to. The mobile situation sucks but it's what we've got and since 50%+ of readers see that version it's worth taking into consideration. And I just disagree on the EU box, 99% of those book characters have never and ''will'' never show up in other books, let alone other comics, games; I don't see a compelling reason to have all that data down there like for the seasons. Off topic, I really wish more of the old regulars were around - SignorSimon [http://24.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum%3ANew_appearances_template&diff=255256&oldid=255159 wanted this exact feature] ages ago and now where is he? Lol --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 01:56, December 21, 2016 (UTC)
[[File:Teri-appearances.jpg|600px]]
:I really think this is a detrimental change for desktop users, especially casual visitors. People looking at, say, Teri Bauer's page currently see her appearances in Season 1, followed by extra contextualised information about her EU appearances; you're suggested presenting them with a list of 11 titles of things 90% of people have never heard of followed by a single line to represent her 24 episodes of TV. The [[Timeline#Relative_timeline|chronological timeline]] is an ugly, confusing mess, and in an ''out-of-universe'' appearances section there's no need to strictly follow the iu chronology.
:How about the idea of displaying a bulleted list to mobile users and keeping the same appearances template as we have currently for desktop?--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 02:24, December 21, 2016 (UTC)
::I agree with Acer to a point. We need to have the appearances temple in desktop users because the idea Pyramidhead suggest won't work for desktop users. It's too invasive and it will too long for both desktop and mobile users. Even Thief agrees that the idea the new format Pyramidhead suggested will not work and it will not be appealing to readers. We're not gonna do that. We need to find some why to make things easier for mobile users about appearances and keep the same appearances templates for desktop users. [[User:BattleshipMan|BattleshipMan]] ([[User talk:BattleshipMan|talk]]) 03:32, December 21, 2016 (UTC)
:::I've made [[User:Acer4666/appearancestest]] as a test template, and put it on [[Teri Bauer]] mainspace article for now (unfortunately the only way I can see to do a demo that's viewable on both desktop and mobile). It displays the current table for desktop viewers and a bulleted list for mobile viewers. Not sure how to fix the indents on the bulleted list like how it is on yours Pyramidhead, but this seems like a solution so that mobile viewers can see appearances?--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 16:02, December 21, 2016 (UTC)

=== Episode guide fonts ===
'''Proposal:''' Replace timestamps and borrowed on-screen titles in episode synopses with styled fonts resembling the actual fonts used in the episode. Examples: [[:w:c:24dupe:Day 1: 12:00am-1:00am|1]], [[:w:c:24dupe:Day 9: 2:00pm-3:00pm|2]]
:{{plus}} "Cool" factor - very professional looking, matches graphics used on show
:{{plus}} Easier to spot "official" time stamps while scrolling through article
:{{minus}} Iffy aesthetics with yellow and blue text together
:{{minus}} Links within on-screen titles not immediately apparent

*'''SUPPORT''' --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 02:06, December 17, 2016 (UTC)

* These are great. The second example is easier on the eyes. Are both examples supposed to be mutually exclusive? Or is the first one intended for earlier seasons (as it's more primitive and reflective of those episodes), and the second one for later seasons. To remedy the links looking like other text, could links in that font be underlined or otherwise standing out in some way? {{User:Blue Rook/Sig}} 03:17, December 18, 2016 (UTC)
**Yes, the idea is yellow for the first eight seasons then reddish for LAD. (I'm hoping for [[#|blue]] in the new season!) We did discuss underlines of some kind - <span class="credits s1-s8" style="border-bottom:1px dotted #aaa;">[[#|Something Like This]]</span> - but I personally don't find it a big problem; the color stands out enough to me to indicate that there's something to click on. As for the actual yellow color - I admit it's very hard to find one that gels with the blue link color ''and'' still looks like the show. Maybe you could mess around a bit? --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 03:47, December 18, 2016 (UTC)
[[File:Timestamps.jpg|thumb|right|200px]]
:::I remember you saying that a paler colour didn't look right but I honestly think it looks less jarring and more like the show: on the right is an example of #fbef9c, which I think is much more preferable to the bright yellow.--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 12:29, December 18, 2016 (UTC)
::::Hey if it works for you it works for me! :D Easy enough to mess with it on the personal style sheet if it's not to one's liking, anyway. --[[User:Pyramidhead|Pyramidhead]] ([[User talk:Pyramidhead|talk]]) 20:32, December 18, 2016 (UTC)
:::Does the main page text need to match the same colour as the episode text? On the main page, which has a big mix of yellows, reds and blues on it anyway, looks good with the old colour in the headings, it was when it was in-line with the prose of an episode page it looked a bit glaring. We already have different yellows for that font in the wordmark, the icons etc., so could we have the brighter yellow for .tally, .mainpage-header and another style for the main page inline text, then the paler yellow for .s1-s8 for use in the episode pages?--[[user:Acer4666|Acer4666]] ([[User talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 13:59, December 20, 2016 (UTC)
* Definitely liking the new color fonts for each of the episodes. I do think it's nice how the color changes between Days 1-8 and LAD are only slightly modified, but still noticeable enough to see the difference. I do agree that blue might not be the best choice since links to other pages are blue, and that'd certainly get a bit confusing. I'm not sure what to use for Legacy's font. I was thinking red, but then some may get the impression it leads to pages that haven't been created, and green seems....off. [[User:TykTrope59|TykTrope59]] ([[User talk:TykTrope59|talk]]) 14:20, December 20, 2016 (UTC)
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