During the past bunch of weeks, editors have been identifying stunt performers all over the place (see Talk:24: On the Loose for just a recent taste). This will spur changes in several parts of the wiki, such as the Performers with multiple roles page. However one thing specifically I'd like the community to settle early is the change that will happen to the Dramatis personae list. It's clear that "Uncredited" is no longer sufficient as a place to throw stunt actors, because although many were indeed uncredited, many others are credited (in the stunts portion of their episode creds).
I'd like to propose the following to be the renamed subheading for all these performers, as a catchall to replace "Uncredited":
Uncredited, extras, & stunts Edit
Thoughts? changes?08:53, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
- That makes sense. How about the ordering of it? Are we still keeping a blanket alphabetical list (mixing up Ryan Chappelle with Kingsley's thug #7) or could we maybe group them differently?
- I wanna quickly bring up the pages of the stunt guys themselves - are we adding "stunt performers" to each page? If so, is also adding the categ "uncredited actors" a little bit redundant, seeing as the vast majority were uncredited? Again it's hard to draw the line here.--Acer4666 09:58, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
- Normally the stunt performers are indeed uncredited. Maybe we should (or could) consider another possibility having two sections on the episodes pages like "Uncredited" for every actor and extra who received no credit and "Stunt Performers" for all stunt actors and stunt doubles in this episode. Just a thought. Tom 13:09, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
- But, sometimes there are stunts credits at the end of the episode right? It comes up a few cards after the co-star list if I remember correctly. If I'm right, this means some are credited (but not all). If we used your idea Tom how would we know who was a stunt person and who was an extra? It means we can't put all stunt people in 1 list. There should be a separate list for credited stunts, and then this list here of uncredited persons. I'll change it to the following:
- === Uncredited extras & stunts ===
18:57, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
- I'm fairly sure only stunt co-ordinators are credited there - though I haven't checked all the episodes. Sometimes the co-ordinators do the stunts, but they're still technically uncredited as they are only credited for co-ordination.--Acer4666 19:01, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
"Uncredited extras & stunts" doesn't account for people like Harris Yulin who wasn't either. I suggest we go with the heading "Extras, stunts & uncredited performers". They're in reverse order of significance, but I think it flows better than "Uncredited performers, stunts & extras". --proudhug 19:40, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
- Is there a way to draw a line between uncredited extras and stunt performers? I'd be in favour of splitting that as Tom suggests, but the trouble is how to place people. Though if we go through with the stunt performers category, everyone actor in that categ would go in "stunt performers" and all other actors go in "uncredited performers" (Or uncredited performers and extras" if wanted)--Acer4666 19:58, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
What's the need to separate them? I see it as being a potential problem since, as far as a show-viewing standpoint goes, it's impossible to tell the difference between an extra and a stunt performer with no lines. In reality, the only difference is the union they belong to, so unless we've got access to the complete list of union members, there may be instances where we have no way of distinguishing between the two. --proudhug 20:14, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
- I think that the lists will look quite messy, especially if they stay organised alphabetically - we're gonna have a mix of characters like Roger Stanton, next to unnamed CTU staffers and "guy blown up #3", along with "Jack Bauer (stunt double)" etc. But it's not a major thing. However, if the "stunt performers" category is going ahead, we're going to have to separate them anyway, so I was suggesting following that through to the cast lists. Are you against that category too?--Acer4666 20:42, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
- I also think that we should split because traditionally on film credits the stunt teams have bridged the gap between cast and crew. Think about stunt drivers - really they're crew, equivalent to special effects guys, making the cars move - but if we happen to be able to make out one of their silhouettes, they'll be moved from uncredited crew to uncredited cast. I think having a stunt section, after cast and before crew, will be a similar bridging thing.--Acer4666 21:14, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
- Obviously I'm not against the stunt category since I was the one who proposed the idea. :P
- I do see what you're saying about the list possibly looking ugly, though. What if they were arranged by uncredited-with-lines, stunts, and then uncredited-without-lines, and alphabetical within each sub-category? I doubt sub-headings will be necessary, but this might be an idea. I don't know if that would be too confusing for people, though. I'm probably okay with any decision; I mainly just wanted to chime in about Blue Rook's proposed heading title. --proudhug 01:37, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
There is no problem to separate the stunt performers from the background actors (or extras). Stunt performers have definitly more physical action than the actors. No problem to say who is a stunt performer and who is a background actor. For stunt drivers this is also no problem. Stunt drivers are seen on screen as they're driving the cars so they do also belong into the stunt category as they're performing a stunt. They are not part of the crew because they're hired to work in front of the camera. They're also different and not compared to the special effects crew who are working behind the camera. We don't need a list of "union members" because we can say without having problems who worked as stuntman in front of the camera and had physical action. Mentioning the union or the Screen Actors Guild it is not allowed for background actors/extras/atmosphere performers to do stunts in front of the camera. The only stunt people who are not working in front of the camera are the stunt coordinator (and maybe an assistant), stunt rigger/stunt technicians, and stunt people who are responsible for the safety, Katie Rowe for example who made sure Dennis Haysbert was safe performing more physical moves than in other episodes. What about a heading title like this
- People who were mainly featured in other episodes or did this job without a credit to lower the costs.
- Extras and background performers like "Man in crowd #3" or "CTU Agent #6".
Stunt performers Edit
- All stunt actors and stunt doubles, stunt drivers, riggers, etc.
So far I know and it would be quite unique for a television show, only the stunt coordinator receives credit at the end of an episode. Tom 04:09, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
- "Physical action" sounds like an extremely subjective term to me, though. If we came across a stuntman who appeared on-screen in an episode but didn't actually perform any stunts that episode, didn't have any lines, and wasn't credited, would we just list him as an extra for that episode? --proudhug 04:32, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
- Proudhug's right. Say there is a guy who just stands there in one episode (background extra). If he lands a punch on Jack in the next episode, do we move him to stunts? Trying to discriminate between these will be like setting up a maternity ward amidst a panicked herd of stampeding cattle. And personally I don't give a mote if "Harris Yulin as Roger Stanton" is listed under "John Doe as Nose-picking alley vagrant". It's not our problem that Yulin chose to go uncredited. I'll cast my vote with Proudhug's suggestion: "Extras, stunts, & uncredited performers" for the sub-heading title. Notice how I added the serial comma! We'll just alphabetize them together and that should be the end of it. 07:31, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
- Ok cool. I was thinking of differentiating with "If an actor is uncredited, and they're in the stunt perfomers category, then they go into the stunts section". Cos often they'll get a stunt team in to play a load of guys, just cos they can handle weapons, or they like working with them etc, and the physical stuff is not seen on screen or not all of them do it.
- But I don't mind mixing them all up - I think the best thing is to wait until we have more information added to these sections and then see if it is getting too ugly or mixed up.
- Also, I wasn't trying to get Harris Yulin out from the other guys out of respect for the actor - if that story about his uncredited-ness is true, I think he deserves to be in the lowest place we can get him haha! I just meant the notability of the character.--Acer4666 09:22, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
- I can see what you're talking about. Because of the unique format of 24 it is prevalent that a stuntman appears just in one episode and is performing the stunts in the next one. But maybe the heading title can be shorter. Extras and background performers are also actors as they do something in front of the camera. Maybe something like "Uncredited actors and stunt performers"? Tom 16:21, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
To reboot this discussion is a good idea since stunt performer discoveries are happening pretty much every day. We need to add to this discussion the issue of categorization. I no longer have any solid idea what to do with the "uncredited" category. Stunt performers and extras are sometimes hard to discern, especially if a performer seems to have accomplished both kinds of roles in his/her tenure on the show. Should we be giving stunt actors the various "Season # actors" categories? Probably not. Actors and stunt people are very different in real life. Of course stunt people are "acting" but it's becoming clearer that they don't belong in the same categories. This is hard to figure out.
My new idea is that we only include actor articles like Harris Yulin and Dennis Haysbert inside "Category:Uncredited". Then we also subcategorize the entire "stunt performer" category there as well, skipping the individual articles. I'm really just tossing thoughts out there. Don't have many answers myself... 06:20, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with not putting "uncredited" as well as "stunt performers", and the subcatgory makes sense. Idon't think we should replace "season X actors" with "season X crew", as I think these stunt people are closer to actors than crew. If you don't want actors and stunt guys together, maybe we could split up stunt performers into the different days as well?--Acer4666 13:09, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see why categories is an issue, since, unlike episode article headings, people can be placed into more than one. And these categories don't need to be either mutually exclusive or one a sub-category of another. If someone appears on-screen in an episode, they're an actor, period, regardless if they're an extra or a stuntman. Now if they're working as an unpaid background character, they're also an extra, and if they're performing stunts or credited as such, they're also a stuntman. Am I missing something? How is it more complicated than that? --proudhug 22:01, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
- You're right about leaving the actor categories for anyone who is on camera. But regarding the second point, about extras and stunts: at this point it seems obvious to me to use a catch-all "Stunts and extras" category. The thought of using the Valsalva maneuver until my brains squirt out of my ears sounds infinitely more constructive than sitting there and determining when a background actor is doing "stunts" or is being an "extra" in a given episode for the sake of choosing 1 of 2 different categories. 04:40, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see the need for an "extras" category, or to put extras into their own special category with stunt performers - I think you'd have a similar maneouvre to distinguish between extras and cast members (some cast members don't have lines, some extras like Kevin Gregg have lines, though ones that don't qualify them for unnamed characters). So my view is - "actors" if they appear in front of the camera, also "uncredited" if they appear in an episode without a credit, also "stunt performers" if they perform a stunt (this is a grey area but I think it's manageable)--Acer4666 11:01, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Here's an idea (not sure if it was already proposed) but maybe we could do something similar to the Star Trek wiki/Memory Alpha, where we just put anyone visible inthe background, performed stunts of any kind or was simply an extra in a "Performer's" section.
For instance, on that wiki I'm comparing this to, they had unnamed extras who later went on to do successful leading TV show work but they weren't stuntmen and whether or not you have any lines tends to be irrelevant in the end as it varies.
- I think the current system works well - if anyone appears in front of the camera, but is not credited in the cast list at the start or co-star list at the end, they go in the "uncredited" section of the dramatis personae. The fact they're "performers" is implied by them being in the dramatis personae section, and the "uncredited" subsection gives further info about their status in the credits.
- Note that for crew cameos, they go in the uncredited section even though they are credited in the episode, because they're being credited for their behind the scenes work rather than their acting work. Their acting work remains uncredited--Acer4666 (talk) 22:21, June 18, 2012 (UTC)
Alright, very nice. It just sounded like it was still in dispute. --Gunman6 18:34, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Found out just this very minute that Al Leong has a Facebook page and while some of the images are most likely already on here, there's some slightly higher quality DVD pic captures as well as Behind-the-Scenes pics of him filming his death scene after the scuffle with Sutherland. Those could probably be featured here I guess? https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2397825624596.145912.1219667724&type=3 --Gunman6 (talk) 07:20, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
- None of those pics are behind the scenes, they're all screenshots from the show. While they may be featured here, you need have a place in mind for them before uploading them. I'd direct you again to the image policy, where it says "Images must be uploaded solely for the purpose of article illustration" - you can't upload images and hope that someone will find somewhere to put them. Unless a legitimate place is found for the images you uploaded (one that doesn't clog up a small article with pictures), they'll be deleted--Acer4666 (talk:Acer4666|talk]]) 02:14, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
- I need help ID'ing the man in Lee Jong 's office in Day 4: 2:00am-3:00am.--Gunman6 (talk) 05:15, September 6, 2012 (UTC)
- There's this one female agent here in Day 8: 4:00am-5:00am who's not credited but appears as an agent. Like Steve Lanza, she appears to have many credits on her actual resume and with her IMDb photos yet most of what's on IMDb isn't the entire story.--Gunman6 (talk) 01:54, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Has anyone have a clue though as to search for the guard who Jack knocks unconscious in the Season 4 premiere?--Gunman6 (talk) 02:22, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Haha - amazing! That actress, Briana Caparo, plays Henderson (Day 8). I dunno how we never spotted it before - nice one Gunman! I've left a note on her talk page about a possible name change, check it out if you can. As for the Day 4 CTU guard - I remember thinking about him but you hardly see his face in-episode for a decent ID--Acer4666 (talk) 10:14, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Great, glad it worked out. I missed that coincidental name as well but that is indeed amusing.
- And even if we can't find out who the CTU Day 4 guard is, I was just wondering about adding him to the Unnamed CTU Agents page.--Gunman6 (talk) 15:10, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
Day 1 finale shootoutEdit
Here are some pics of the Drazen guards in Day 1. We know that the long-haired ones are named Marko and Serge respectively and that the latter most likely got away and was killed by the TAC team since Bauer never fired at him, only killed the former and both Drazens and there's no length of time that would've allowed for him to have killed either. I also need help identifying either unknown stunt performer.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:16, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
- If you're talking about in-universe events, no-one was killed by the TAC team as George Mason said once they got there "Jack was the last man standing". The other deaths not seen could quite easily have been people jack shot/ran over outside the building as he was driving towards it.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:33, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
- First of all, that's even more preposterous than my idea that the TAC team gunned down the henchmen since there's especially no evidence of such an event. I watched the scene four different times and there is no exact moment where he could've gunned down or run over anyone since:
A.) Both the two unidentified background Drazen goons jump/run out of the way of the on-coming van crash. The first one just jumps away, never seen again while the darker haired one in the booth just gets either knocked-out by the van crashing or runs out of the booth off-screen (If one suspects that Bauer rammed the booth hard enough to where he killed the man, I am open to such interpretation).
B.) Marko is not only the only one shown but the ONLY one that could've actually been killed seeming how Serge runs out of the compound and is not seen when Marko opens up fire nor is seen firing. He just simply runs away which would back up your belief that he possibly survived. Immediately after Bauer shoots Marko, he runs outside after the Drazens (which then has the infamous camera man goof, the Victor Drazen stunt double shot above and Bauer then proceeding to jump down to the lower docks. No time would've allowed for additional bodies.
C.) Again, I listened clearly to the statement and while one could believe that Mason might've meant that Bauer was presumably the killer of all the mentioned deaths, he never says anything like "Bauer killed them all" or "Killed all seven bodies", only that there were seven bodies found there with the "Last man standing" quote.
- This leaves me thinking that what the TAC team discovered included: Alexis's body (an idea you put forth in another thread) as well as the Serbian doctor and the doctor's daughter.
- So we have three confirmed kills by Jack, three discovered dead bodies and one other unaccounted for.
Also, don't forget that Mason was being rather cocky in that scene while he bragged about it to Tony.
D.) More importantly, you know as well as I do that they would've shown someone get run over by Jack and that he's not that sloppy when it comes to a stealth attack. Unless there's anything to suggest that injured but satisfied Bauer went back and shot those three possibly escaped goons, IMO I say no dice.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:58, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Right, here is Mason's statement:
- George Mason: TAC team finally gets there, Jack didn't wait. He went in without them.
- Tony Almeida: By himself?
- George Mason: Evidently.
- Tony Almeida: Is he alright?
- George Mason: He's alive.
- Tony Almeida: What about the Drazens?
- George Mason: Dead. Congratulations Teri, your family's fine they're on their way over here now. Anyway, Karris counts 7 down, Jack's the last man standing.
- There is no way the TAC team killed anyone and this conversation is also true. If you really need, perhaps take a look at graphs I prepared. Notice how in the graph of your version, at no point is Jack ever the last man standing. Remember this is the consensus viewpoint that has existed on the wiki for some time, and if you disagree you are required to discuss and change the consensus before removing the info from pages.
- You also seem to be taking the viewpoint "if we didn't see it happen on-screen, it didn't happen". you say "you know as well as I do that they would've shown someone get run over by Jack" - like they'd show Operation Nightfall, or Scott's death, or Novakovich's bodyguards' death? No, this is a TV program that needs to be edited to make the running time.
- You also say people couldn't have got run over because you see two guards running away from the truck. The guards he ran over could never have been shown, and the guys fleeing could have escaped and not be counted at all. I know (look here) that the Drazens had more than 5 men working for them so this is perfectly feasible.
- "that's even more preposterous than my idea that the TAC team gunned down the henchmen since there's especially no evidence of such an event" - neither events specifically have evidence for them. Except your version doesn't match up with Mason's statement about Karris, and mine does. I'm not saying it happened - just that it could of happened, and explains why we didn't see it.
- If you watch the scene more carefully, you'll hear that after he shoots Marko the camera follows the drazens running, and we hear more shots coming from Jack's direction when he's still inside the building. He could have been shooting guys at that point. Also, you're getting the Serbian doctor confused with Nikola Luminović and Mila Luminović - their deaths happened at a completely different location to the docks.--Acer4666 (talk) 21:18, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Right, here is Mason's statement:
New Subject: Possible Stunt Double for Kim, Her Friend Who's Hit by the Car or Mandy plane victimEdit
- I discovered this stunt woman whose credits include both the second and fifth episode of the first season, I also wouldn't be surprised if she played one of the first episode victims: Take a look and see if you wish.
- I really have to stress that you must take imdb credits with a large grain of salt. The official title of every episode produced is (eg) "2:00am-3:00am" - they don't put in the "Day X" prefix like we do when producing them. Imdb therefore listed the first season like that, but after that introduced the prefix for later seasons. Therefore if someone works on "Day 6: 2:00am-3:00am", their call sheet has the title "2:00am-3:00am", so the person contributes to their imdb profile saying they worked on "2:00am-3:00am", which imdb interprets as the first season, which is of course wrong.
- Shauna Duggins doubled for Sarah Wynter, and you'll notice 1:00am-2:00am is when she was in a lot of action (in Season 2). I believe the person doubling Janet York in the car hit was Casey Easlick--Acer4666 (talk) 21:22, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Any chance someone can identify or know what website was the source of the Day 8 pic WrapOn24" before the 48 hour deadline is up due to non-usage as well as know what other actors/crew members were present?
- Replying to the comment before my unrelated quibble, yes, I know you don't take IMDb credits seriously but I was simply reiterating what they think since it's all I have go on. Anyway, I managed to finally interview David Kilde, who is an incredible talent and while he had no clue about who was Adam or Jason, he at least provided me with the name of the other performer, who's page I just created here: Carrick O'Quinn
- Any of these Day 7 Navy SEALS actors ring a bell?
- Nope - if you watch the scenemakers feature for that episode, they say that those guys were actually Navy SEALs so aren't stunt performers. It'll be a near impossible job tracking down the names of the military guys--Acer4666 (talk) 00:38, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- No problem - the FBI guy could be a stunt performer. In the following episode, they seem to have used background extras for the SEALs - Arlo Hemphill plays one of them and Rick Schimmelpfenneg plays a Starkwood guy. Hard to identify them in the episode though--Acer4666 (talk) 01:04, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
Season 8 uncredited actorEdit
I just stumbled upon the IMBb page of this guy. He's called Ajay Nayyar and lists uncredited appearances on several episodes of Season 8 as a CTU worker/staffer. I don't have the Season 8 DVD to verify, but there are plenty of clear pictures of him on the IMDb page for anyone that has the time to check who he was on the show. Thief12 (talk) 21:48, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Another neat find, Thief12. Much like any uncredited extra/rising character actor who had the fortune to be on multiple episodes of this show, this man's only previous experience is the likes of short films and guest appearances on CBS/FOX crime dramas or documentary reenactments. His profiles there unfortunately had zero photos at the ready to copy over here so someone will just have to search through the episodes of the final day should free time arise.--Gunman6 (talk) 22:51, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
- My mistake, this uncredited extra actually only appears in the first eight episodes of Day 8 but I think he might be visible in the third episode Day 8: 8:00pm-9:00pm and based off the photo gallery, it appears as if there's someone who may or may not possibly be him.--Gunman6 (talk) 09:21, January 18, 2013 (UTC)
John Meier in Season 6Edit
- I was studying all the unidentified faces on this page and all I can say for sure is that this is action actor John Meier without a doubt.
- Also, awhile ago, someone (possibly Thief12 or SigmorSimon?) were asking if Meier appeared in every season of the show and if this is in fact him (which is has to be as I've studied all the online pics on Stunts Unlimited), this would make him the only other actor to be in every season of "24" besides Kiefer which is an even bigger plus. :)
Caryn Mower doubling for Katee SackhoffEdit
- I found out that this person not only doubled somewhere for Sackhoff on the show but for Sackhoff in other movies/shows as well as seen here.
Unfortunately, I can't upload that photo as it's not from the show but also because I can't figure out when and where this would've occurred as Sackhoff did all the waterboarding stunts and appears to do the entire death sequence so the only other time would possibly be when Bauer is bashing her head against the table in that interrogation scene.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:21, December 21, 2012 (UTC)
ID'ing convicts, Salazar's men, SWAT guys and Saunder's men in Day 3 Edit
- Due to the holidays, I don't have time to upload and categorize every single image I'm trying to show you guys so I will show you the appropriate IMFDBdotcom pics links:
- S3xEP05 Possible Henry Kingi role for a clearly seen John Meier and Lobo Sebastian prison riot scene
- S3xEP07 Salazar goons close-up for when Jack exits the plane; one of them could possibly be Nick Hermz on the far right
- S3xEP12 More Salazar goons, one which seems to have an Edward Fernandez-type hairdo but his face is obscured by a close-up of another
- Saunders' helicopter getaway gunner (Again, I'm think we dug up some dirt on him but don't recall clearly)
- - The person in the Delta Force snapshot from Operation: Nightfall is unfortunately not Erik Betts but someone potentially similar.
Day 4 Stunts using IMFDB picturesEdit
- I think these police officers who find Richard hiding in his house in Ep.2 were discovered but can't find them listed
- A stuntman who looks like Sam Ayers (most likely) or John Meier (least likely) is seen in Episode 7 as one of the hitmen at the hospital here
- Another hitman seen shot by Jack during Episode 7
- Another assassin from Episode 7 who gets shot by Tony
- In Episode 14, one of the two agents behind Tim Griffin's character looks potentially like he could be Jalil Jay Lynch
- In Episode 20, there are these two Chinese guards who fire at the getaway van.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:34, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
More Day 3 Stunt menEdit
- All of these are from the raid on the Salazar-Amador exchange in Day 3: 12:00am-1:00am:
Day 4 Premiere Kidnapping StuntsEdit
- To save both time, abide by the wiki's rules and save space here, I have uploaded some pics on Flickr. Many of these henchmen seem to resemble Gary Price, Tim Connolly, Henry Kingi, Jr., Sam Ayers and Erik Rondell so if you think you spotted someone, give me a shout:
Day 1 Ira Gaines MenEdit
- I would say: No, no, no, no, possibly but I'm far from convinced, no.--Acer4666 (talk) 11:42, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
Stunt Photos from 24: Behind the Scenes BookEdit
I also suspect that stuntman Ben Bray played the agent on the left who holds Stephen Saunders in custody while Jack interrogates him in Day 3: 11:00am-12:00pm.--Gunman6 (talk) 06:25, May 31, 2013 (UTC)This might just happen to be Jon Braver: --Gunman6 (talk) 17:17, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Any of these goons look familiar?
Megan Cole's stunt doubleEdit
- I'm having issues matching it up exactly with any of the names that ThomasHL has listed here. --Gunman6 (talk) 17:11, July 22, 2014 (UTC)