Summary of unresolved archive issues
Archiving the talk page again (and probably for good). The page is way to long for people to chime in so I'd like to summarize key info and open up for discussion. Kudos to Blue Rook for the format which I will shamelessly copy. Credits go to contributors including Acer4666, BattleshipMan, Blue Rook, Gunman6, OneWeirdDude, Station 7, SuperbowserX, Thief12, myself and others. Here are the topics I'd like to review:
- + 6 Downey Holding Facility shootout in 3x05: Here's what I thought. When the SWAT first breached in Ramon and Jack knocked out two prisoners, a dark-hair stuntman who doubled for John Meier (whom I think is Mike Smith) and Christopher Whitman who doubled for Jalil Jay Lynch respectively. Then the SWAT guys tossed two grenade, with the second one detonated at the feet of two blond inmates and blown them up. A shootout ensued between the prisoners and SWAT. Three inmates were seen firing weapons: Yoshi Ando and a Caucasian guy were firing behind a cart and a third bald guy was hiding behind a pillar. and only one inmate was specifically seen getting shot and killed. We can't see much due to the chaos and suddenly a fourth guy next to a big laundry machine was shot and the SWAT called it all clear. Also three bodies (excluding Peel) can be seen lying on the ground during and in the aftermath of the shootout. So my questions are:
- Were the SWAT guys using non-lethal flashbangs or frag grenades? Given the scenario it looks like lethal ones as there were rubbles and flames can be seen on the ground. So the two blond inmates were indeed killed, though their bodies were not seen in the aftermath, likely a continuity error.
- The three bodies that were actually seen during the fire exchange. First guy, lower right, second guy and third guy. I don't know who the hell is the person on the left who seems to be crouching. I don't think the SWAT would give the all-clear if there was still an inmate hiding there so I deem that this guy was likely a crew member? Those three were not the ones knocked out by Jack or Ramon so I counted them as dead.
- Yoshi Ando, the white guy and the bald guy were not seen killed although it was heavily implied. So I don't really count them in unless someone suggest otherwise.
- So I think at least six inmates were killed in the shootout. --William (talk) 06:54, April 18, 2020 (UTC)
- For the two blond guys hit by the grenade/flashbang - I'm tempted to not include them as dead, as the area where they were was seen multiple times after the flashbang detonated and there's no sign of them, suggesting they were not killed by it and escaped. here is the moment it detonates, and here is the area afterwards (I've circled in red where the flashbang detonated). You've mentioned this is a continuity error but given we don't know for sure that the explosives were lethal or not, but we have evidence that their bodies were not there, the most likely explanation is a non-lethal flashbang and they escaped.
- I agree with the first two of the dead bodies you've counted, but the third I'm pretty sure is the same as the man Ramon knocks out. Here he is just after being knocked out, and this shot is from another angle but it's the same position, and the guy is wearing the same stuff with the turnup jeans.
- So I would say: one guy seen to be shot, plus two dead bodies seen afterwards, makes three deaths during the shootout.--Acer4666 (Talk) 12:28, April 18, 2020 (UTC)
- Okay I think you are right about the third unconscious guy and the two blond inmates, though that doesn't really explain why a flashbang would cause so much destruction and rubbles and all that. But anyway those two blond guys did disappear so I have to give it to that.
- What about Yoshi Ando and his fellow? I think it mirrors the 4x22 Marwan factory shootout, the one we have debated in the archive talk page. The terrorists/inmates were shooting, and Jack and Curtis/SWAT returned fire and suddenly they called it all clear. Yet we included the factory terrorist's death. The cart where the two inmates were hiding behind was pretty far from the exit and after the SWAT shot the inmate next to the laundry machine they stopped shooting in less than a second and declared all clear. The fate of the shotgun dude? Maybe he escaped with his life as he was closer to the exit but for the two others, I think we should treat them the same way we did for the factory terrorist. --William (talk) 15:05, April 18, 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah I suppose the timing of this scene is the same as in the factory shootout, shots are fired and then its declared all clear. However, I believe the "fourth man" you say gets shot by the laundry machines is one of two who are firing from next to that laundry machine. So I think that makes two unseen inmate deaths (bald inmate and the other laundry machine man). That would bring the total to five deaths--Acer4666 (Talk) 17:57, April 18, 2020 (UTC)
- In this shot we can vaguely see the silhouette of the man by the laundry machine, and in the very next shot the two men were still firing from the cart so I think the man got shot was neither of them. As far as the bald inmate, although he was closer to the exit so he might escape, I won't really oppose to the idea of listing him as dead. So all four inmates seen firing the guns and resisting arrests were shot dead and plus the two lying on the ground, the total deaths are still six. --William (talk) 06:08, April 19, 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think that is a silhouette of a person. That shot continues after the frame you chose, and it zooms in, and you can see there's no-one there, just a shadow: here. Additionally, the shot directly previous to that one shows the area clearly and there's no-one there (so if you're using the argument "people can't change position between consecutive shots, the logic fails). I think the shot of the guy dying was done from a sharp angle which is why you see the laundry machine behind where the two guys are firing from--Acer4666 (Talk) 10:13, April 19, 2020 (UTC)
- All right. I guess he probably changed cover in the actual filming, and bad editing is the only explanation for his teleportation from position 1 to 2. --William (talk) 10:43, April 19, 2020 (UTC)
- I think I may retract another death from this count - the first guy of the two dead bodies seen, which is just the top of a head in the lower right of frame - I think that is Ted Barba's corpse. It's not in exactly the same position, it looks to be a couple of feet back, but the inmates could have shifted the body a little bit during the previous seen/the shootout.--Acer4666 (Talk) 22:13, April 19, 2020 (UTC)
- Well though I can't put up hard evidence to say that's definitely not Barba, production-wise speaking I don't really think Barba would be on-set that day? Actually we don't really see the corpses of Buchanan and Barba after the segment as the scenes were shot on different days and I think on the laundry raid day both actors had already left the set? I'm not 100% convinced myself so I just post it here and see what you think. --William (talk) 06:51, April 20, 2020 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, it does look like the second guy is in the position of Buchanan's body, and is wearing the guard outfit Buchanan was. I guess production wise the actors probably weren't on set, but given the bodies are in the right positions, it would seem in-universe that they are meant to be those corpses that got killed earlier (not in the gunfight). I guess that just leaves the three inmates that were shooting back at the guards as deaths from the gunfight?--Acer4666 (Talk) 09:29, April 20, 2020
- + ? Saunders henchmen shootout in 3x22:
- - 1 Richard Heller residence shootout in 4x01:
- + ? Suvarov motorcade attack in 5x10:
- + 1 Fayed apartment terrorist in 6x08:
- + 1 White House shootout in 7x12:
- + 7 Tundel House perimeter shootout in 9x09:
- + 1 Shootout with Russian operatives in 9x11: