Talk:On-screen kills by Jack Bauer

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S8E13 3 kills?

I've just noticed the current list mentions 2 kills in this episode. However, during the scene where Jack engages the hostiles in a firefight it seems as he takes down 2 enemies instead of one-the first goes down right after he's hit in the vest and the second one is shown after Jack's already down.What makes me think these are two kills is that he aims in a different direction after taking down the first one.Now I watched closely the scene several times and Jack engages 3 people-Ali, the one who's shown as killed and somebody above who isn't shown anymore.So assuming that after Renee takes out Ali and the guy who Cole engages in a fight it leaves that person who was above, so unless Jack killed him it sorta leaves a ghost in the field who just desappears after the firefight. The way I see it-the guy above managed to reach the ground by the time he got killed. Any ideas?

Uh oh..

Number 32 on Day 6, a.k.a 168 overall, a.k.a. Zhou Yong commando #7 from Day 6 3:00am-4:00am does not exist. I've just watched the scene 4 times, there is no one Jack kills in between the guy stood by the grey background and Zhou. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 14:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks like I was crying over split milk. I found one that was missing from the finale, so removed one and added another! --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 14:35, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Photographic evidence

Hey, if I can get scans for the comics, do you want to include the kills from those or no? It might not come up for a while, but I'm working on it. --StBacchus 18:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking about this, and I think it might be good to have a seperate page, which could include comic books and video game characters with names, like Peter Madsen and Max. I was thinking that over the next months, we could finish up the television kills, and add some statistics. Then do a comics/video game page. - Xtreme680 19:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If you included comics and games, you'd have to include novels as well, and since this article is little more than an excuse to make a pretty table with pictures of the people Jack has killed, it wouldn't fit. Perhaps a more visually simplistic, yet complete list of Jack's kills (including those mentioned in the past like Drazen wife, daughter and double) would be better. Or, as suggested, we could have separate pages for episodes, comics, games, novels, etc. Either way, this particular article needs to be renamed. It needs to somehow mention the fact that it's on-screen kills from the show. Also, "Kills" needs to not be capitalized. I won't change that because we need to decide on a different name anyway. --Proudhug 23:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like the article, suggest it for deletion. If you don't like the style, suggest a new one or bring up the issue. I see no problem with putting effort into making the page look nice, instead of a huge rundown of names, nor in documenting encyclopedic information that pertains entirely to 24. On-screen kills by Jack Bauer might be a fitting name. While it is believed that Jack Bauer might have killed the Drazen family, we don't have documentation nor proof that this actually happened, it's just what Bauer assumed to have happened, and he's been wrong before considering both Victor Drazen and Stephen Saunders. An article of this nature necessitates pictures, so those belong elsewhere. Since the others belong on a different level of canon, they can have their own pages and they can be fleshed out and discussed by whoever has access to the novels or comics, as I don't. He only has a two kills with names from the game, so we might want to merge that with the comics article so we can continue to have a similar style. I don't know how we can have a novel page with a nice style, but I'm sure we can think of something. - Xtreme680 05:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

According to Jack's summary of Operation Nightfall in the House Subcommittee book, he wasn't actually the person who killed Vesna and Martina. They were killed when someone else on the Delta team blew up the structure they were inside. I believe it's the same in the show.

Generally I'm for integrating as much as possible, but I kind of like the idea of putting the tie-in stuff on a different page - the novels, comics, and games together. This page will be huge enough, and it's a natural enough division. To include kills from the novels, you could preserve the format by using an icon rather than a picture of the kill happening. I could come up with some ideas for that if you like the concept.

This page isn't just a pretty face, it's an alternate method of organizing a body of information. Without it, you'd have to look at the 150+ dead people pages to find out who Jack killed. Proudhug, you might not have a use for this information collected in this way, but that doesn't mean nobody does. If there's a concern about the page being incomplete while it's still under construction, maybe we could fill in all the kills right now and add the pictures later? Or put up a notice that it's a work in progress? Both, maybe? --StBacchus 08:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm in support of a seperate page for novels and game kills. I'd be happy to scan comic books, and write up a list of novel deaths as I read them (although I've been through most now). I will try with the game, but I have no means of getting screencaps. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 09:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The Game poses a huge problem an average player will kill hundreds of people. If these non-TV deaths get recorded, I think they should be on a list page, rather than a gallery page, and include every confirmed kill from Jack, on-screen, off-screen, novel, comic, between days, etc. --Proudhug 17:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, that sounds liek something we could do, as long as we have a few dedicated contributors who will be willing to help out with it. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 17:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm willing to chip in when I get a chance to go through some stuff. We need to set out some strict rules, of course. For instance, the death has to be confirmed and not ambiguous. In the case of The Game, I say only the deaths that are necessary for the completion of the game get included, such as Max. --Proudhug 18:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Definately. Otherwise there could be countless more than necessary that could be included. I'm happy to work through some of the novels, and I have the comics too. --SignorSimon _{(talk/contribs/email)} 19:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Kill average

Jack's 200th kill occured in Day 7 9:00am-10:00am, the show's 16th episode. This makes Jack's kill average 1.4 kills per episode for the first 146 episodes.

Redemption is included in the kill count, but not the episode count. Does it count as zero, one or two episodes? --Proudhug 01:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Redemption has legitimate on-screen kills, but it's not an episode of any season. I would think it should be counted as "zero" episodes, or perhaps, a stand-alone episode which isn't counted as part of S6 nor S7? Blue Rook  talk  contribs 01:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

If it's not counted as an episode of the series, then a note including it in Jack's kill/episode average is meaningless. --Proudhug 02:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm having trouble understanding. I guess it's just easier to include Redempt as an episode of Season 7 for the purposes of that count? Blue Rook  talk  contribs 02:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

In September 2007, Pyramidhead added a note about Jack's 100th on-screen kill and how he averaged slightly more than one kill per episode over the first hundered episodes. Today, SignorSimon made a similar note, as Jack's now reached 200 kills. Simon included the thirteen Redemption kills in the count, but didn't include it in the episode total. This inflates the average quite a bit, as it's not an accurate calculation. Either this note should be removed, as it's pretty meaningless, or it should be adjusted to make it a proper average. But including Redemption poses as slight problem, as it's a double-length episode. --Proudhug 03:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Possible mistakes

Does anyone know whether there was a third guy killed between 7:54 and 7:55? Maybe in the car? I didn't see another guy. --StBacchus 14:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, during the Day 2 firefight to protect Jonathan Wallace, I only count three guys killed by Jack. Wallace and Yusuf each killed at least one, but I think there are only three for Jack. --StBacchus 19:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, after seeing both firefights, it looks like 3 in the first one and 4 in the second, for a total of 7, although we have 9 listed here and BauerCount has 10 (!). --StBacchus 19:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not confirmed if Jack used a HK SR9T to kill Scott, Peter Kingsley's sniper. How could he have used that if there was no sound of a gunshot? Therefore, I just replaced "HK SR9T" with "unknown".

Yes and judging from the context of that kill, it was probably a broken neck or something. Good work. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 15:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

In response to StBacchus's very old posts above, I re-watched the Day 2 gunfight and sort of agree with her. There is one kill in the list which I wouldn't describe as being "confirmed" by video evidence:

Kill number 22 (#12 in Day 2) - There are lots of sparks of bullets hitting the metal fire escape, and the man seems to just duck away. Later, a man who looks to be in exactly the same position is killed by Yusuf. Now as the man ducks away after getting shot at by Jack, he continues to fire his gun into the air, which is standard "movie guy death". But he could have continued firing as he ducked away, and we definitely don't see him fall to the ground. He does have an expression of pain on his face though.--Acer4666 19:08, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

He definitely falls to the ground. It's hard to see through all the smoke, but I rewatched the scene many times and I cna tell you that he dies and falls. --ASHPD24 19:27, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

He falls back, out of sight, but not down--Acer4666 19:34, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like he falls down and hits the metal railing. And remember, there's often times in movies and such when the same person or shot is reused to give the appearance of more people. And plus, I'm not so sure he could've survived that barrage of gunfire. --ASHPD24 19:36, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

The sound effects are just bullets hitting metal, they give no indication. I know stuntmen are reused, but it's the same positioning on the stairwell as the guy Yusuf shoots (I think). And it's a different camera shot, not a re-used one. As for people surviving amounts of gunfire, I think if the scene followed that logic Jack, Kate, Wallace and Yusuf would probably all be dead.

The fact of it seems to be - we don't see what happens to the guy after he disappears from view. He has a look of pain on his face, he's shooting up in the air, but he just moves back behind a wall. I wouldn't call it a confirmed kill--Acer4666 19:41, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

No, I hear the sound of a body hitting the metal. --ASHPD24 19:47, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Well even if you are able to identify that particular sound, it doesn't prove anything as there is a giant gunfight going on all around the place so it could be another man dying off-screen.

However having gone through the shot frame by frame too many times for my own good, it seems as though there are some plastic curtains behind him that the guy starts to fall through. It does seem as though he recoils as if hit by something, which is as much evidence as some of the other guys in that firefight. I think the camera doesn't quite catch his flip back when hit, so all you really see is him moving backwards, but the expression on his face and what little I see of his movement before the camera zooms in indicates to me he was hit by a bullet as opposed to flinching away from the gunfire.--Acer4666 19:52, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

I'm amazed that you can make out his face through all that smoke. --ASHPD24 20:12, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Haha, are we talking about the same guy? I'm on about one of the four kills in the first 2 minutes of the episode, they haven't done smoke bombs yet. I think I know the one you're talking about, it's in the second gunfight, and I also didn't quite buy that one till I did a frame by frame and saw him get hit--Acer4666 20:14, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Ah I know which one you're talking about. They're both hard to tell, but the answer is simple - if you got shot by Jack, I don't think you'd survive. --ASHPD24 20:28, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

A huge THANK YOU

On behalf of everyone here, I'd like to extend a big thanks to King Vo Mathis at the 24 Insider, who worked to find the official times of the Jack Bauer kills (and also was able to track down the names of some of the random cronies, like Peel and Rouse, to name a few). Nick N., we all really appreciate the work you put in! Thanks very much! -Kapoli 01:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I second that! The times are so useful for getting pics, and it's awesome just to have them there for reference. Thank you! --StBacchus 12:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

More questions!

First, would we like to be able to link to individual kills, the way we can link to individual research files? Second, what verb tense are we using for this page? Sorry about the endless questions, but now that there's time, I'd like to polish this page to a glossy sheen. --StBacchus 08:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be great to link the individual kills on the corresponding character pages, when appropriate. Like the part about Jack killing Nina on Nina's page can link straight to Nina on the chart.... it'd be nice to see that. -Kapoli 01:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, done. For anyone wanting to link directly to a named kill, it's like this: [[On-screen kills by Jack Bauer#NAME]]. Just put in the name exactly as it appears on the chart. The only one I didn't do was the second Scott in Day 2. If that guy's name is also Scott, that makes two Scott (Day 2) and they need further disambiguation. --StBacchus 12:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Breaking the page into sections

I think this page's size might be the cause of the disappearing margin problem that Proudhug was having earlier and that I now get every time I preview a full-page edit. Does anyone have a problem with breaking it into smaller pages, like the Research Files page? --StBacchus 13:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like a good idea, but I don't think we need the scroll bars like we have there, we can just make the templates, so that if you want to make an edit, you just have to go to the template for that particular day. - Xtreme680 22:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, I agree. I wouldn't want to squish this page at all. Of course, the other way to make the tables way smaller would be to make new classes in the Monobook.css. One of you admin-types should give that some thought. --StBacchus 23:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Screen Shots

My 2 week trial for WinDVD expired and I can't get screenshots. So if someone would want to get some pics of those season 4 kills I added, that would be great. -CWY2190 18:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguity

Wow, some of this can get pretty arbitrary. Rewatching Day 1 11:00am-12:00pm, I checked the van explosion to see which two guys bit it. I see three or four guys go flying when the van exploded. I also saw no reason to assume they were dead, since the weren't actually in the explosion, just near it. They didn't catch on fire, they didn't fall that far. It's hard to ascertain how many people were lying motionless afterwards, but judging by the very beginning of the next episode, there are certainly more than two guys who weren't moving. How should we decide things like this? Certainly lifting it straight from bauercount.com isn't a desirable method. --Proudhug 18:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's arbitrary. The important thing to remember is that this is for fun, so no one should get too worked up about it. When watching the van explosion, I saw two guys flying, per the picture, and only those two guys not moving after it was over, in the same episode. I think the picture spelled it out fairly quickly, with both those guys screaming, and a few seconds later, not moving, while other people that were close were moving. Kevin Caroll was near, but was still alive. Since it is only on-screen kills, I did not include other people lying on the ground, and other people flying off camera. While it can be ambiguous, I say we err on caution, and if a kill is disputed, we take it off. No one can feel that strongly about including some dead dude from a van explosion. - Xtreme680 02:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. But you don't see three guys flying in that picture (possibly four if you include the foot on the far right)? I guess his one leg is still on the ground, so he's technically not flying, but there'd be no reason to assume he was any less hurt than the other two guys. But since this article isn't a serious reference page, it really doesn't matter.

Alos, since the page isn't a count of the deaths, why not just combine the two guys into one field and put "Gaines terrorists" instead. This not only clears up any abiguity about number (though not about whether or not death occurred, I guess), but it also eliminates the unnecessary inclusion of two or more fields that are exactly the same. --Proudhug 02:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

How's about this. We change the second picture to show the two guys not getting up, because I'm almost certain the third guy does. The man with the leg was never shown flying, and we never see the man laying on the ground get shot by Jack Bauer. The man to the far left is Kevin Caroll. I'll rewatch the episode and see if I remember things correctly. But I do want to keep them seperated, so we can keep a proper count and make sure all the kills are accounted for. - Xtreme680 02:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, either this is a count or it isn't. Since the kills aren't numbered, I assumed it was just a visual document of on-screen kills, not a count of them. --Proudhug 02:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Since it's not done, it would be silly to have to keep changing the numbers around while we add new kills - Xtreme680 02:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

One thing that i feel is wrong is the Ted Coffel Kill. Jack may have punched him, but it was Ted's choice to die by refusing to take the pills. I feel as though that is not a Kill by jack bauer, but rather a suicide. Other wise, why not count the man who popped the Cyonide into hiss mouth on Day 2 when jack pointed a gun at him?

I know this is an ancient discussion, but for the sake of anyone reading through this, I thought I'd point out that there definitely isn't any ambiguity about the two men killed by the van explosion in Day 1: 11:00am-12:00pm. There are six people shooting at Jack at the end of the episode: Ira Gaines, Kevin Carroll, Neill Choi, then later a long-haired guy and two more, this guy and this guy. When the van blows up, the two "dead blokeys" I mentioned last were next to it, whereas long hair guy and neill dived away (the "leg" you can see in the pic on the page belongs to Neill). I think we can agree Gaines, Kevin and Neill survived, and the long haired guy was seen walking around at the start of the next episode. Added to this, the two "dead blokeys" were seen lying still on the ground, smoking at the legs, at the start of the next episode. It's pretty clear there are only two dead bodies.--Acer4666 19:20, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Abrams?

I didn't know how to spell Ibrim, but I'm almost positive it isn't Abrams. Does anyone have a source for this name? --StBacchus 15:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

After a review of that scene, my closed-captioning notes his name as "Ibram". -Kapoli 15:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

General editing problems and discussion

What am I doing wrong for day 4? the table doesn't take up the whole screen. -CWY2190 12:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I had that same problem. Surely there's some smart way to fix it, but they way I did it was writing more text in the description box. As long as the text in the description box of at least one of the cells takes up more than one line, the table will look right. -StBacchus 18:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Aha, I fixed it. SMRT! The table wasn't set to width 100%. Anyway, it should work fine no matter how much text there is now. -StBacchus 19:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

This page is looking good... the funniest one so far is Ted Cofell: "Cause of death - punch to the heart." Ah, only Jack.

And I've lent out my Season 2 DVD, so I can't do this myself, but can someone add the guy who dies in Season 2 after Jack shoots him with a flare gun? His plane crashes and he and Nina wait for CTU's search and rescue team, but the other group gets there first to kill them... know what I mean? Anyway, if anyone is bored and wants to put that one up, that would make my day! --Kapoli 23:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it looks good. I'm definetely not done with the Season 2 or Season 3 sections, but I have been really busy trying to set up my new wikia, so I will do that within the next week. I have all the pictures I need, I just need more time in the day. - Xtreme680 00:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

So then, is there anything else you need? I figured I'd just throw 'em in when I came across 'em, but if you've already got a bunch lined up, there's no point in repeating your work. -StBacchus 09:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone put in the Season 5 kills? He killed Haas, I think he took out a couple at the natural gas plant. He took out at least 4 when Evelyn Martin meet with Henderson. There are also others I can't think of. -CWY2190 15:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, got Haas and the four Beresch minions Jack killed. Of course there's a boatload more this season. Also, I have no idea if that's really how you spell Ibrim. -StBacchus 16:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I've just been working on Season 2 and Season 3, so you guys can continue working on 4 and 5 if you wish, you're doing an excellent job. - Xtreme680 22:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Other stuff

I'm going to keep working on this, but I am going to need people's help in editing and discussion. For right now, what constitues a kill is that Jack does the killing. Paul Raines is not a kill, but Ryan Chappelle is. While Jack's actions may have killed Paul, he didn't mean to kill him, and he was not the person who shot him. However, Jack pulled the trigger on Ryan. If you disagree with a kill, mention it here. I will also be putting the context of the kill and pictures up over the next few days. - Xtreme680

I disagree with the take on Paul. Jack may not have meant to kill him, but "unintended and unwanted kills are also included for sake of completeness." Also, he may not have shot him, but if Jack had not interfered, Paul might have survived Conlon's shot. It took a while for him to die, so I'd say both Jack and Conlon were responsible. OneWeirdDude 23:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a pretty slippery slope. If everyone who wouldn't have died if Jack hadn't done something was considered an "unintentional kill", about half the deaths on the show would be considered his kills. For example, if Jack hadn't rigged the safe room, Bill Buchanan wouldn't be dead. If Jack hadn't told Alexis Drazen's girlfriend about him, Alexis Drazen wouldn't be dead, and so forth. Raines died because Conlon shot him. Jack didn't kill him. He just prevented him from being saved. The title says "unintended kills" not "unintended links in a causal chain leading to the prevention of a prevention of a death". (128.100.247.62 19:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC))

Wiki 24 Talk

This may be the ultimate piece of fanboyness, but I was thinking we could have a page, similar to the episode guide lists, where we list the kills Jack Bauer has had over the course of the seasons. It could be divided into sections by season, but I'd prefer it to be one full page. It could be Picture|Name|Episode|Method, which would be a great way to also link to the weapons we have articles for. There are several sites available where we can access the information, so the main work would be going through the episodes for the picture and the editing process. I'm posting this here because
1. I want to know if the administrators think it's a good idea.
2. I'm going to need some help
3. This is going to need discussion. We need to decide what constitutes a kill(Some people are going to die anyway, like Raymond O'Hara in Season 2, plus people like Ryan Chapelle, Habib Marwan, and Paul Raines might be tricky, whether Jack killed them or injured them (he doesn't exactly check their pulse every time), whether Jack killed someone or someone else did (we don't see the trajectory of every bullet). Also, we need to decide what information is relevant. Get back to me, I've done so much tweaking and so much adding of characters no one remembers, that you are probably sick of seeing my name on the recent changes list, but I'm just trying to improve the site. - Xtreme680

I love your idea. In fact, how about a complete encyclopedia of death? There are two people I know of that are keeping track of Jack's specifically: [1] and [2]. That first link goes to a forum thread that also contains a complete body count for season 5. Cinemorgue has also got quite a few. Wiki 24 has the best total list, but it could be better. I think it would be very useful to have a complete list of deadies (and not just because it will help me write fanfiction, LOL).

I would like to see one page for each season, with a table like you suggested, with each row alternating colors (say, between black and gray) to make it easier to read. I like your headings, and I like your idea of integrating the weapons pages. So maybe instead of Method, it could read Weapon - or keep Method and have that column list whether it was a murder or suicide. Since these are all going to be small columns, there could also be a Description column for those deaths that require a little 'splaining. What do you think, sirs? Xtreme680, is all this too far from your original line of thought? -StBacchus 14 April 2006

I was inspired by [3], because that page looks similar to our episode pages, but we would be able to do it better.

I had no plans to make encyclopedia of death, but now that you mention it, couldn't we have both the encyclopedia of death and the Bauer kill count? On the Bauer kill count page, we could have Method, which i think is important because sometimes Jack blows up cars or snaps peoples necks. On the encyclopedia of death, we can have Cause and Killer. On cause, we can put things like suicide, shotgun blast, broken neck, and on killer we can put who killed them. The Bauer Kill Count page can have Picture|Name|Episode|Method and the encyclopedia will bePicture|Name|Episode|Cause|Killer. As for the descriptions, that's why this setup works so well. We can describe the death in the area between pictures, just like in the episode guides. - Xtreme680

Yeah, this IS totally fanboyish. While I don't think it's an inappropriate project, I personally don't see much point to it. We've already got categories such as "Deceased characters" for stuff like that, and besides it seems to me there's way too much ambiguity to much of it, as you pointed out. But feel free to give it a shot if you want. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. --Proudhug 17:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think those are problems that we can't fix. For one, we won't call the article "Jack Bauer kill count". We'd call it, Deaths caused by Jack Bauer, or Confirmed Kills by Jack Bauer, or something to that nature. This makes it sound more official. We do have deceased character categories, but this is something to improve the quality of the articles beyond the simple category pages. As for the ambiguity, well, thats why we have discussion pages. Besides, if there is one thing that will attract new users and be a cool front page article, it will be this. - Xtreme680

For Day 3, please add to the list, Arthur Rabens (12:00pm-1:00pm). - Risico

Day 6

What about the terrorist that was shoved from the speeding train by Jack in Episode 2?

Jack didn't kill him, his own bomb did.--Vinny2 02:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

While I agree this is true, there is a practical issue of semantics as far as what "causes" a person's death. If we get TOO literal, we can make the argument that everyone that died at barrel of Jack's Gun were killed by the bullet and not Jack. I say that if Jack's direct involvement results in someone dying, Jack should be credited for the kill. In this case, I think Jack should be credited for Marwan's death. Granted Marwan cut Jack's hand to ultimately cause his own fall and death, but Jack was the one who dropped him. The same goes for Paul Raines. If Jack hadn't entered the operating room, Paul would be alive.

That's just silly. If Jack never carried out Operation Nightfall, Teri would still be alive. Should Teri be added to the list? Jack was not responsible for the terrorist dying in the subway. Jack was trying to stop him from dying. He would've died even if Jack hadn't been there. All Jack's actions did was prevent other people from dying. Just because Jack didn't prevent someone from dying doesn't mean he caused their death. --Proudhug 01:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Day 6 Kill Count

I think someone should finish it, I might even do it. Tony Almeida 24 11:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't let us stop you. I'd do it, but I don't have the DVDs. OneWeirdDude 23:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Check some description of kills

I added pictures and some comments to OSK #142 to #147.

Can you check the grammar/spelling please and fix the description if they do not match the rules/standard.

I also moved the name 'Victor' from OSK #146 to OSK #147. Beause Victor was shot at the end of Day 6 7:00pm-8:00pm but died at 3 minutes and 10 secondes of Day 6 8:00pm-9:00pm.

OSK #146 was only some unammed terrorist.

Day 2 - Alex Hewitt

Should Alex Hewitt (Day 2) be counted? Its a while since I've seen it but wasn't it Jacks shot to his leg that caused his fall from the roof - which in turn caused the head injuries that killed him? An unintended death - but should it be included for the sake of completeness? (194.221.215.245 12:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC))

That's a tough one. If I were you, I'd add it and see if anyone takes issue (this is generally how Wikis work). I believe your idea about Hewitt is a reasonable kill to count, so you will not get opposition from me. More support for your idea: the maintainer of the Bauercount pages said in one of his comments that they plan on adding Hewitt. Post it and see what happens, or respond here and I can do it for you. - Blue Rook 05:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC) _talkcontribs

DVD Prequels

Should kills from the DVD prequels be listed? Jack killed the driver of the car chasing him in the Season 5 Prequel by making the car slam into a forklift, impaling the driver. Jol123 08:52, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'd include that directly onto the page, that is, not within one of the transcluded templates. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 15:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Phillip Bauer

Did he kill Phillip? He did have the chance to save his life, but he didn't. Snsean11 07:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I definitely don't believe that counts for a kill. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 11:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Neither do I. Josh shot him, making it difficult-to-impossible to escape the bombers and the missiles destroyed the oil rig; Jack, meanwhile, tried to save Philip, but he resisted his son's efforts, similar to Sherry Palmer resisted Julia Milliken's efforts to save her husband's life. OneWeirdDude 23:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Redemption

Is Redemption part of Day 7? Then it should be changed to "Day 7". If not, I think the redundant "episode number" column should be removed. OneWeirdDude 00:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Redemption is the prequel to Day 7. I don't see what's wrong with the column? It speaks the truth, doesn't it? Blue Rook  talk  contribs 00:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Omar

Should Omar be added up here? I think Jack killed him before the Marines took him down, and I remember reading somewhere that the knife he threw hit him in the throat.

Ggjk 02:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I though he was hit in the chest. Besides, personally I'm not sure what to think, since the Marines seemed to have finished Omar off after Jack threw the knife. -- Matthew R Dunn 02:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Shootout at 2:00-3:00pm

How are you people dealing with Jack kills in the shootout with Dubaku's men? I counted 6 kills by Jack. Thief12 02:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Day 3 dog

Why is Joseph Walds dog not listed as a kill in this list?

That's because this is restricted to human kills, because animals are generally not considered people. OneWeirdDude 20:38, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Day 8 chart

Hi, the column on the Day 8 chart has "Season Total" column wider than it should be. OneWeirdDude 20:47, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

24 Redemption

At the beginning of the school shootout, he throws one TNT stick at a car and kills 2 Rebel soldiers, before he starts taking down the others with his Glock. I would include them but i don't know where to find the images from that scene. Could some one do that? please...

See Template talk:JackBauerKillsRedemption, we think they were just stunned. Did they move afterward? Blue Rook  talk  contribs 02:40, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Unseen kills and dead bodies

Once again, we see the bodies of antagonists that Jack killed, but we didn't see the actual kills occur, now in S8ep22. The other most famous incident where this occurred was Scott (Peter Kingsley sniper). Personally I just don't understand what the difficulty is about this. They should be included if there is video evidence of death, even if it happened after the actual action. Let's include all those Novakovich goons. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 17:54, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Serge

His life's a scream? Anyway, how come he's in Deaths on 24 but not here? And I think there's two others from that time period. OneWeirdDude 18:51, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Because he doesn't fit the rules of this page. He was killed off-screen. --proudhug 19:22, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I just noticed this too; I went and deleted the claim over in the episode guide, that he was seen getting shot. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 01:08, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

When I first saw the deaths on 24 and jack bauer kills section i saw that the kills are different. When i found out that Serge was killed off screen i was like "Oh so thats why he wasn't included in the on screen kills -WWE Fan

Day 2, Kill #25 (Scott the sniper)

Why is this listed as an on-screen kill? It's not actually shown.

Because it meets all 4 of the criteria for this list: 1) Jack directly caused the death, 2) video evidence is shown of the kill, 3) Scott was killed, not knocked out or whatever, and 4) it's from the show, not a novel/comic/game. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 21:03, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

Day 5: Ibrim's explosion

Why is it said here and here that the explosion from Ibrim's vest killed another terrorist? I surely saw one fall, but he seemed to be a bit far from the explosion to be killed by it. I don't think there was any indication that proves he was killed. Thief12 02:52, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

S6 Missing kill / S5 Prequel kill

During the shootout on the oil platform, when Jack shoots the last fuel tank, it says he kills 2 people, but I watched closely and noticed that 3 men run ahead of Cheng and are definitely killed when Jack shoots the tank, menaing that a kill was missed.

I looked back at 6x24, and I found this. The last batch of baddies that come running after the second explosion, seen here.

That's 3 guys that are killed in the final explosion, not 2. Thoughts? --ASHPD24 14:07, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Is a full re-tallying of all subsequent seasons necessary, or, is this missing kill already accidentally accounted for in the prior explosions? The answer would require a careful watch of all three explosions (which I cannot do at the moment). Might you be able to check this?Blue Rook  talk  contribs 14:48, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, I have. Here are some more photos.

Plus the last 3 in the final photo, this should help. --ASHPD24 15:15, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I've counted the number of circles you've demonstrated (9) which corresponds to the 9 exploded guys on the OSK page currently (ignoring the first three, who were just shot down before the explosions). So this means that we merely have to rearrange the explosion kills, and it is not necessary to do a full re-tallying of all subsequent seasons, correct? Blue Rook  talk  contribs 17:18, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Sadly not the case. The second circle in the 3rd photo includes 2 guys. The other guy is very hard to make out, but I can make out his shadow.

But listen, I have enough practice with this page to re-tally the kills no problem. --ASHPD24 17:25, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I've just had a look at the scene, and I'm a little confused as to where the current numbers have come from. The way I see the scene play out is as follows -

1. Jack shoots three guys from the helicopter. 2. The chopper lands, and three guys run from the right, and two from the left (picture 1 and 3 above both seem to be from this shot). I don't agree with the second circle including two guys myself? 3. Jack shoots to the right, explosion, jack shoots to the left, explosion. Men are seen flying from the explosions, but these seem to have been counted as different people to the guys running in the previous shot. 4. Three guys run round the corner (the first pic ASHPD24 uploaded), followed by Cheng. We then see the third explosion, and there are no guys except Cheng near it, but I guess we can put this down as a continuity error and assume the three guys got killed.

So that makes three guys shot, three guys killed in the first blast, two in the second, and then three in the third. Which makes 11 oil rig operatives killed by my count--Acer4666 17:37, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

To ASHPD24... Wait: it may not be necessary. Recently, I had a conversation with proudhug about the usefulness of keeping those inter-season tallies. My point was that we only need the intra-season tally, and then a sum at the bottom. We'd eliminate all the "continuing tallies" from every season. I'd want you to wait for a bit before changing all that because others may want to check these development (as Acer just did), and additionally, why do the inter-season tallies if the discussion calls for their removal anyway. Read and reply here with your opinion on that issue, if you would. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 17:41, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'm a dumbass, strike that. Most of that post was pertaining to the Deaths page only, not this Jack's Kills page. Still, give it a wait for more opinions and evidence. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 17:44, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I've prepared photos of all the individual relevant shots from the shootout. They're all in order here. I've circled and numbered the relevant guys to keep track of who is who - but I think it supports the fact that 5 guys were killed in the first two explosions, and 3 in the 3rd explosion.

(ie, look at the middle circle in picture one above, you can see the guy is in the same position as the circled guy in picture two, and the screenshots are seconds apart so it has to be the same guy).

The only point of contention as I see it is ASHPD24's claim that he has circled two people in the third photo, but I definitely can't make out shadows of more than two people on the left. I'm unsure as to which of the two circles you're talking about - they're arranged in the classic "movie credits" position where either one could be first or second, do you mean top right or bottom left? The photo I have uploaded to the photobucket site was taken at the last possible frame of that shot, and I can definitely only see one person per circle.

If no-one has any objections to these findings in the next week or so I'll change the list to reflect the changes, as well as adding Berkov to Day 8 as per Talk:Berkov.--Acer4666 14:03, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Those photos look a lot better than mine which are darker, so I don't have any objections to this one. The dark quality of my photos I must have seen another person near the bottom of the left circle.

But now that that's settled, I have another thing to bring up. Why don't we add baddie who gets a knife thrown into his throat from 4x6 as a kill and the driver from 5x0 as kills? --ASHPD24 16:18, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

The season 5 prequel kill I think has been brought up before, and I agree with it being added, the only question would be how the formatting would work, and whether it would count as a "season 5" kill or separate. The current inclusion criteria for this page say "only kills from the TV show", were the prequels ever shown on TV and do they count as part of the show? I'd vote yes, if we're including redemption.

As for the baddie in 4x06 - I presume you're referring to Omar (Day 4)? If you watch the scene frame by frame, you'll see that Jack's little knife actually hits him in the shoulder (it does look like the throat from a certain angle, but Omar clutches his shoulder as he goes down), so I don't think it could be said that Jack caused his death, and I'd say he would have probably survived had the marines not gunned him down.

I'm gonna check a few other of the hectic firefights, so if you have anymore queries now is a good time to bring them up!--Acer4666 17:53, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Should we add Marwan? True, he cut Jack's hand which ultimately led to his death, but he would've survived had Jack held on longer. It's not like Marwan rammed the knife through Jack's hand so hard that Jack had no choice to let him go. Jack technicially could've held onto Marwan. --ASHPD24 18:22, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Check out some of the discussions above. Marwan was brought up here - the way I see it, how did Marwan get into the situation that meant that without Jack hoisting him up single handedly he died? Because he threw himself off the roof. Jack tried to save him, true he may not have put in as much effort as he could have, but neither did anyone else present, so Jack isn't really responsible.--Acer4666 18:37, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Marwan was a suicide. I never had this thought you're all discussing that Jack didn't hold on enough or something. He held on probably longer than any other human on earth could have... and did you hear him scream after Marwan died? I am 98% positive that that scream is the loudest Jack has ever been throughout the entire run of the series.

Regarding the S5 Prequel kill, that was an EU non-TV kill so it doesn't go here according to the current criteria. We would have to change the criteria to insert that, and before I'd want that to happen, I'd need to see the complete list of similar kills that would consequently get added as a result (I'm sure you all can agree we don't want this page getting flooded with really silly stuff). If the criteria change allows only this S5 Preq kill, then I'd support it. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 20:27, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

I just felt that it was kind of both their faults. But what does screaming have to do with it?

By the way, I'm in favor of the prequel kill being added. --ASHPD24 20:54, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

If you re-watch the season 4 finale you'll remember all right away. He screamed "Noooo!" in abject rage that Marwan was dead and he was unable to interrogate him as to where the missile was headed. For all Jack and CTU knew, it could have been headed toward any city, town, fishing village, or foreign country on the map. Hell you could hear his voice over the sound of the chopper! Blue Rook  talk  contribs 04:58, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

But what the bloody hell is this relevant to? --ASHPD24 05:05, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

It's evidence that Jack didn't want to kill him/proof that Jack had no intention to do it. Now I already know that intentionality isn't a criteria itself, but in this instance it shows that he held on and did not drop him. He actually prolonged Marwan's life, albeit for a few useless seconds. ASHPD24 are you making the argument that Marwan is like the Gaines kill? Blue Rook  talk  contribs 06:18, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I see what you're saying now, but in a sense that's technicially true. It's one of thsoe things where if he let go of him instantly I wouldn't question it, but since he waited a few seconds before realizing it was a lot cause, he just gave up and let him go. --ASHPD24 06:32, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'll never believe that Jack let him go on purpose (on account of "lost cause" thoughts, revenge, or anything). If there's a moral to the show, it's "Jack Bauer is a man who never gives up". He simply was unable to physically hold Marwan anymore.

But if one makes the following argument: "because Jack's grip slipped, that is a kill albeit unintentional" then one may be on to something. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 07:38, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree with Marwan being on the list - he threw himself off a building, Jack tried to save him and failed, there were some awful special effects, and he died. I don't think any court in the world would put any responsibility on Jack. But people like Paul Raines (Jack forced the doctors to stop working on him at gunpoint), Ted Cofell (Jack punched him in the heart, which killed him), Alex Hewitt and Ira Gaines (Jack shot them in self defence), and the other borderline cases, a court would find Jack responsible, even if in self defence or whatever.

I'm just putting this out there, but what do people think of Mila Luminović? Jack essentially used her as a human bullet shield. If the situation happened elsewhere and you substitute Drazen's men for police and Jack would be charged with murder, or manslaughter at the least. I dunno whether she should be on the list or not?

As for the season 5 prequel, it seems we just need to drop the inclusion criteria from 1 to 2 on the canon scale. So, "the death must have occurred on the TV show (including DVD prequels)" in point 4 on the list. And were they really never shown on TV?--Acer4666 09:24, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Re: Marwan: I'd go so far as to say that even if Marwan had called Jack a bad name, causing Jack to angrily let go of him, Jack still wouldn't be responsible for Marwan's death. The fact is that Marwan died because of Marwan, not because of Jack. Let's say Tony had shot a terrorist and then Jack went over and questioned the guy while he was dying, promising to get him medical attention if he gave him the information he needs. But the guy refuses to divulge the info, so Jack walks away, leaving him to die. The kill goes to Tony, not Jack. In my opinion, whomever performs the action that initiated the cause of death is the one responsible, at least as far as this list is concerned. This isn't a court of law.

Now how does this differ from Alan Milliken? Well, since Sherry incited his heart attack, she's clearly to blame, but even if it had come on by itself, her stopping him from getting his medication still caused him to die of a heart attack, so she's responsible. As opposed to Marwan's jumping off the building which caused his death.

I also think Mila's situation is cut and dry. Jack's action didn't kill her, Victor's did. She didn't die of hostage-taking, she died of a bullet to the head. I think these deaths need to be looked at strictly as "Who was responsible for the [cause of death]?" and not complicate things by incorporating everything that happened to lead up to it.

As for the Prequels, I'm fine with excluding them since they never did air on TV. --proudhug 17:28, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Everyone talking would like to include it. It's just 1 small change, it wouldn't hurt anything. --ASHPD24 17:34, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I was under the impression that this page is meant to be congruent to Deaths on 24 which only includes deaths from the aired TV episodes. Now, this Kills page doesn't count off-screen deaths, while the Deaths one does, but I still think they should be consistent about which source material is allowed. --proudhug 17:50, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Then they could be both include that. And if it's re-tallying you're worried about, I've got everything covered in case. --ASHPD24 18:00, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not the tallying. It's that these are supposed to be deaths from the TV show "24." Technically the DVD featurettes aren't a part of the show. --proudhug 18:06, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

But if most agree that it should be added, isn't it a good idea to add it and just change the rules a little? It's not something like a huge change. --ASHPD24 18:29, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

My personal opinion on what constitutes the "TV show", are the 24 episodes of each series. So I think if we include redemption kills, we may as well include prequel ones, cos they're equal on my personal canon scale. But I know the website has a different canon scale, including redemption as part of the TV show. That's my tuppence--Acer4666 18:33, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

If we include the prequels, there's no reason not to include The Rookie on the Deaths page either. I really think these lists need to remain strictly from the TV show proper. Redemption is considered a episode of the television series, unlike the DVD special features or webisodes, ie. it would likely be aired along with the regular episodes during future reruns of the show.

And ASHPD24, remember that just because most people think something should happen, it doesn't necessarily mean that's what we should do. This wiki works on consensus, which deals with strength of arguments, not popularity of arguments.

As a compromise, I suggest we put a note at the bottom of the page, mentioning that it's a kill not included in the list (much like on Deaths on 24). That way it's here, but it's not officially here, so everyone's happy! --proudhug 18:52, April 20, 2011

(UTC)

In that case I don't really see what makes that any different from what I'm saying. I don't see why we can't add this kill simply because it wasn't on TV. And we wouldn't have to do The Rookie because it's in a different category (it's a Colonel Makepace sort of thing). --ASHPD24 19:04, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

The Season 4 Prequel and The Rookie are both mini-episodes filmed by the 24 crew which take place in the same universe and compliment the TV series, despite never having aired on TV themselves and not being required viewing. It's essentially the same category. --proudhug 19:16, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Same type, but the miniseries doesn't concern itself with the actual TV series and it's more like a sidestory. But ultimately, there's no compelling argument against not having these types of kills listed. It's a small thing and wouldn't take much effort. --ASHPD24 19:31, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'll say for balance that the prequels are distinguished from the spin-offs by this website's canon policy--Acer4666 19:33, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

The difference for me, ASHPD24, is that we're sticking to just including deaths from the TV series, and remaining consistent with the Deaths on 24 page. Since you don't see a difference yourself, does that mean you're okay with the compromise? If not, why not? --proudhug 19:41, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Because you're not understanding that those rules can be changed and we can include a wider variety. I'm not saying including everything else, but if we just change the rule to include 1 small thing, then why are you so hesitant to change that? --ASHPD24 19:59, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

So then we need to be discussing a rule change. What reasons do you have for this proposed change, other than merely to include this one kill? --proudhug 20:06, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, it would allow more kills to be included. Even if it's not in the TV series, we can include kills from the prequels, The Rookie, et. al. I don't think allowing kills from other places like books and games to be included because they don't happen in live-action, but since the prequels and Rookie series are essentially part of the TV series cannon, we should include them. --ASHPD24 20:12, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'm with Acer4666 on the idea that the Prequels/Debrief are on par with the content that aired on TV, such as the seasons and Redemption. And I've never considered the Prequels/Debrief to be merely "equal" to The Rookie and other spin-offs. What difference does it make that they weren't aired on TV? The Rookie, Conspiracy, and other stuff makes an effort to be tied to the show, but the atmospheres, the continuity (and hell, the production budgets) never fit. The Rookie is characterized by an intentional, light-hearted goofiness (Jason Blaine ties up some Russian terrorists and leaves them with a friendly horse-riding park ranger, for god-sakes, it's like a cartoon). Whereas Prequels/Debrief clearly did occur in the 24-verse. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 20:43, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but you're not actually giving any reasons why it should be changed, ASHPD24. Why is allowing more kills beneficial? And why do you think of the prequels as "TV" canon when they didn't actually air on TV? Since you for some reason don't like my compromise, I have another one. What if we created an article that lists "People killed by Jack Bauer"? Then we could include the TV episodes, the movie, the prequels, all the comics and novels, and even people killed "off-season" such as Elena and Martina Drazen. --proudhug 20:46, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Are you talking about an actual page? --ASHPD24 21:11, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

A separate list article, yes. --proudhug 21:26, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Fine, but if you do that, then this kill has to be added to the current page. Consistency. --ASHPD24 21:46, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so really you have no interest in discussing this or reaching a compromise. You just want to include that kill here merely because you want to, and who cares about reasons. I feel bad for having wasted both of our time here. --proudhug 21:53, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

But you haven't offered any substantial reasons against it. Just the same "have to include other live-action media if that's the case". --ASHPD24 22:39, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, since you're not willing or able to defend your stance, I've done some research for you.

The introductory criteria on this pages currently states that the death must have occurred "on the TV show." It seems clear to me that that includes Redemption, but excludes any DVD or web shorts. Now, Xtreme680 created this page five years ago, but unfortunately he has permanently left Wiki 24, so we can't ask him his original intentions. The page was originally titled "Confirmed kills by Jack Bauer", which would seem to include every piece of media, except that a line about excluding comics and novels was present from the start. But there was the added explanation that this other media wasn't included "because there is no photographic evidence" (even though one could argue comics and video games provide "photographic evidence"). I myself later changed this line to "due to the difficulty in visually documenting them" before StBacchus removed it entirely.

Because of this evidence, it seems to me that this page was sort of created with the intention of documenting every person Jack Bauer killed, however aesthetics were more important than completeness, so only visual deaths were allowed so we could have a pretty table with pretty pictures. Personally, I think that this makes the page kind of moot. I'd rather see a page that includes every kill by Jack Bauer, not just ones from selected media, but whatever. Perhaps there's a way to incorporate the existing stuff with lists of "confirmed" kills from the comics, novels and games. --proudhug 19:33, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

What with having the british dvds, I'd never seen the season 5 prequel - so I've just watched it on youtube, and I really think this discussion is unnecessary for this article because - Jack didn't kill the guy! All he did was drive away from him, the guy's own reckless driving killed him. Jack didn't force the guy to chase him at high speed round a building site, I really don't think can be classed as a Jack kill, however the inclusion criteria works out--Acer4666 19:47, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Wow, Acer. You're a freakin' genius. We've all been so distracted with what the rules should be that we didn't even realize that this doesn't even fall within them, no matter how you slice it! Haha, thank you! --proudhug 19:58, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Hold on a second. YOU said you wanted to exclude any kills that didn't happen in the 24 hour time periods but now you say you WANT to include them? Can you please make up your damned mind? You're not willing to defend your stance either. Just the same BS you've been saying. It's not evidence, it's not good reasons, and it's nothing different. --ASHPD24 19:55, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

As Acer just pointed out, it's an irrelevant discussion now, but regardless it's not about "making up my mind." My mind is willing to change due to convincing reasons, which it did... once I dug for the reasons myself. I'm sorry if you're never able to budge on your opinions, regardless of what others say, but I am. My reasons are clearly stated above, I'm sorry if you missed them. --proudhug 20:04, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

No, it wasn't the driver's fault. --ASHPD24 20:01, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

So do you want to include the material from other sources or not? It doesn't have to be all from the same place, it can change. --ASHPD24 20:08, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

As odd as it seems that's what the page was created for, but since Jack didn't actually kill the driver, it really doesn't matter at this point. --proudhug 20:14, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Of course you have. But you didn't care about what I had to say, did you? --ASHPD24 20:55, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

ASHPD24, the conversation feels far less hostile to me than you may be reacting against. If you take a moment read all the posts aloud (as if you were reading the dialogue of a play), you might find (like I do) that there isn't any bad blood here, just a misunderstanding of arguments.

Anyway, at this juncture, Acer's point does in fact render this conversation unnecessary. Jack did not kill that loser behind the wheel. He just made a turn. The loser also tried to make the turn. But he sucked at it, and died! Jack didn't force the guy to make the turn, it was all the driver's doing. The driver was actively pursuing Jack, and could have just as easily said "oh christ this looks dangerous" and stepped on the brakes.

(Imagine if you were being chased by some psychopath, and you swerved around a corner... the psycho tried to swerve, too, but died because he was a loser. Then, all of the sudden, the cops arrested you for murder! Wouldn't that be nuts? In this sense, don't you agree it wasn't a Jack kill?) Blue Rook  talk  contribs 23:31, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You make it sound very simple. If it is the psycho's fault, what if there's no evidence that says it was purely accidental? I base my opinion on the fact that the cars were too close together to make it completely the loser's fault. Mostly, yes, but what would a court think? I've always been hazy on the subject of car kills, so you could very well be right about this one. --ASHPD24 23:38, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Not sure how those hypothetical questions apply here, and the physical distance of the vehicles, it doesn't matter. They are not the case in question since courts are not (and cannot be) an aspect of the death of the driver in the Prequel. I mentioned that "arrest scenario" as a similar situation merely as a way of saying "imagine if you were accused of *killing* a man who was chasing you when all you did was flee him". If such a court did accuse you, it would be a mistrial. Similarly, Jack didn't kill this guy, and to accuse him of it/give him credit for it is to make a false statement. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 07:46, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

This might be a dumb question, but if a court did accuse me of such a thing, then how would it be a mistrial if they found me guilty? --ASHPD24 07:52, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

The sentence rendered would be based on falsehood. Perhaps I used the word "mistrial" in the wrong nuance, but the gist I'm getting at is: such a court would be wrong, whether or not it was discovered officially later. Blue Rook  talk  contribs 08:00, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Well in that case, that's true. I've never been good with "car kills" but I watch it again and it defintely wasn't a ram so it seemed more like he slid into the forklift blades. --ASHPD24 17:22, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Another missed kill

Much as I am loth to say it, I think there's a missed kill in the Day 6 shootout just before Fayed is hanged. It is very easy to miss, as it isn't edited "Jack shoots - cut to man dying" like the others are, but Jack fires off some rounds and runs into cover, and then it cuts to the end of the man falling to the ground. But it's definitely a separate kill. It occurs between kills #154 and #155.

Also, besides Fayed there are 7 different guys at the warehouse, and we only have 6 on the list. They are: Anthony Martins (#153), Michael Hilow (#154), Sala Baker (#155), an as yet unidentified bearded man who is to the left of Jack in the firefight (#156), Halil (#157), Hiro Koda (#158), and the final man has curly hair and lets Fayed and Halil into the chain link section with the bomb (this is the man that has been missed). You can see his body inside the chain link section after he dies (him, Halil and Fayed are the only people in that section as the others are all outside it). I dunno if anyone else can check this out, but I thought I'd stick it on here and if there are no objections I'll do the changes--Acer4666 17:19, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

I myself noticed this too, but I always assumed the man was just diving into cover because I thought the shots were too far apart. --ASHPD24 17:35, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

But his body was seen afterwards, lying on the ground. There were no survivors of the shootout - much like Scott, the peter kingsley sniper, it is an on-screen kill I think--Acer4666 17:38, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

But it's different than Scott's kill because he was killed off camera. This guy was killed in plain view, but he was missed. Now, if you have a photo that shows the kill, then that's that. --ASHPD24 17:52, June 3, 2011 (UTC)