Strike team members inconsistency Edit
Hasn't anyone noticed that the strike team members listed on this page are completely different than the members in the Nightfall comic? I'm venturing a guess here that the "Findings at CTU" novel and the Nightfall comics were totally different. This should be noted at the bottom or something. The inconsistency is irreconcilable and, if that list is really from Findings, we'll just have to live with noting it but making pages for everyone anyway. – Blue Rook 21:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)talkcontribs
- Yup. Findings was retconned when Season 3 mentioned Stephen Saunders, who was unimagined when Cerasini wrote the book. The comic obviously ignored Findings and invented their own set of characters and events. I've always considered the Findings characters to be non-canon, due to the retcon, akin to deleted characters. Perhaps we should change our deleted characters categorization to retconned charcters. --Proudhug 13:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'm suggesting grouping characters from deleted scenes and retconned characters together into something like Category:Non-canon characters. The category would include Steve Wiseman, Alam, all of the Findings Nightfall operatives, and perhaps anything else you can think of that would result in an OOU character page. --Proudhug 18:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I understand, but, who are we to decide between Findings and the Nightfall-comics and which is "correct"? I'm down for the change but would like to get the reasoning on that first. – Blue Rook 20:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)talkcontribs
- I guess I'm just assuming that Nightfall retcons Findings because A) it came out later, B) it includes Stephen Saunders, where Findings doesn't, and C) Nightfall gives more detail of the mission. Also, we actually see the events in Nightfall, where as Findings is merely a transcript of Jack describing the events. Technically, he could've been lying, although this would make no sense, considering the information was probably verifiable. --Proudhug 21:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, I really like this now. I'll move the category to "Category:Non-canon characters" since that sounds as good a name as any to me. I'm glad you brought this up early before that category wound up with more stuff in it. 1) Does the description in the new category accurately describe retconning? 2) What other characters/events are you aware of that are retconned like those Delta team operatives? – Blue Rook 21:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)talkcontribs
- I reworded the category description somewhat to make it sound more cohesive. The only other example I can think of that might be a retcon (although, I think the older source makes more sense) is Jack's job in 24: One Shot. The original printing introduces him as the Special Agent in Charge, but when the comic was collected in a trade with Stories and Midnight Sun, the position was changed to Director of Field Ops (See Talk:24: One Shot for the discussion). I assume this was changed to explain why the SAiC would be going out on a mission on his first day when he should be familiarizing himself with the office. At the time, I disagreed with the trade's retcon, but looking at it now, it's probably right. Jack was definitely the SAiC in Day 1 and Operation Night Fall, then DoFO in Day 2. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that he was promoted before OHG, then demoted after Day 1. --Proudhug 22:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'm glad it's just this handful of things so far. Is it possible that the confusion over One Shot/Nightfall and which came first could be a retcon? I always thought it was unbelievable that Jack joined CTU but then afterward did a foreign Delta force operation. Was he on vacation from CTU, or something? Non sequitur: please let me know what you think about Talk:Jesse. – Blue Rook 23:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)talkcontribs
- Well, as we decided with the issue about Chappelle's family, unless it's a blatant contradiction, we shouldn't consider it a retcon. I'm assuming you don't have Findings at CTU, so let me quote the relevant passages from the book (p.7-8):
- BAUER: My name is Jack Bauer. At the time of the twenty-four-hour period under investigation by your subcommittee I was the special agent in charge of the Los Angeles Division of the Central Intelligence Agency's Counter Terrorist Unit. I'm also a reserve officer in the First Special Forces Operational Detachment, also known as Delta.
- FULBRIGHT: What was your military rank in the Delta reserve?
- BAUER: Captain.
- FULBRIGHT: And your status now?
- BAUER: I'm currently inactive, sir.
- . . .
- BAUER: . . . Three days before Operation Nightfall was launched I was reactivated by Delta Force for a special operation inside Kosovo. I was ordered to report to the Joint Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, for a Delta Force permission briefing.
- DRISCOLL: . . . Is a reactivation like yours unusual?
- BAUER: No, ma'am. A reactivation like mine was not unusual at all. I had gone into Kosovo in direct action missions on three previous occasions, and twice I'd gone to Belgrade. Each time I had been placed on temporary active duty.
- So, the book specifically addresses whether or not it's believable. I hope that puts the issue to rest for you. :)
- As for the Jesse thing, I'd have to watch the episodes in question to fully see the situation. --Proudhug 02:58, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- It sure does put that to rest for me. :D
- For Jesse, I thought of keeping it all on one page and chalking up Jesse's responding to being called "Danny" a continuity error. But to be on the safe side, I'll make two separate pages (one for Danny and one for Jesse) and note the issue in their BG/Notes. Kinda like we chose to do for Jackie/Marcy. – Blue Rook 07:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)talkcontribs
Air strike Edit
There's obviously no easy way to reconcile all the contradictions here, but I don't think the show necessarily contradicts the use of an airstrike vs. a bomb. I'm assuming you're going by Andre's "When a man travels halfway around the world to set a bomb..." comment; I don't recall any other mention besides that, though I could be wrong. It's pretty likely that Andre himself wasn't around to witness the explosion, and anyone who was got blown up at the same time. I took the line as a figure of speech to show Jack's culpability, not necessarily an accurate statement of events. The thing is, if we take everything the show says about Nightfall as gospel, we'd also have to update this to reflect that Saunders was "loaned to CTU" for the mission, which makes zero logical sense even by this show's standards. Seeing as Nightfall is the closest we're ever going to get to a "canon" depiction of events, I think we should defer to it over a line that could be taken in more than one way. JMO --Pyramidhead (talk) 02:48, January 5, 2014 (UTC)
- As far as I'm concerned, we should take what facts the show gives us and use them as the bare structure of the version of events, and then fill in extra details with what happens in Nightfall. If there's a discrepancy between what's described in the show and whats in some other piece of media, there's no debate for me!
- Andre wasn't guessing or speculating - although he wasn't there, he and Alexis gained access to the Nightfall file which gave the Americans' version of events.
- Secondly, the fact Drazen was actually killed by a random plane pilot flies in the face of the entire Season 1 plot. The whole story was about taking out all the remaining responsible parties (Jack, Palmer, Ellis), and if all Jack's team did was radio in some co-ordinates (it takes 7 men to do that?), I'd say the pilot who actually dropped the bomb got off very lightly - didn't even get a mention during the Drazens' revenge spree.
- About Saunders being loaned to CTU - the line is maybe worded a little weirdly, but I took it to mean Saunders was being loaned to CTU when Jack picked him for the mission. Seeing as Jack "hand picked" his men and trained them, it would be weird for him to pick a random MI6 agent if he wasn't being loaned to CTU at the time!--Acer4666 (talk) 12:11, January 5, 2014 (UTC)
Number of men killed in Nightfall Edit
Obviously so much of Nightfall info is contradictory and full of retcons, but there's one particular detail I'd like to straighten out - a piece of show vs. show contradictory information. That is, how many men were supposedly killed in Nightfall (this number includes Stephen Saunders). The show says:
- In "Day 1: 1:00pm-2:00pm", Mike tells Palmer "he led a six man team into Kosovo...only Bauer survived".
- In "Day 1: 2:00pm-3:00pm", Palmer tells Jack "I know you took out Victor Drazen and his inner circle and I know you lost six men in the process"
- In "Day 3: 5:00am-6:00am", when talking about Nightfall Jack says "five others died, including Saunders".
The Nightfall comic says 5 and Findings at CTU says 6 but they don't really count as anything they say is overridden by the show.
My feeling is that as the first 2 quotes indicate 6 men died, and only 1 indicates 5 men died, that it's more likely Jack mis-spoke than both Palmer and Mike made the same mistake twice (given they had been reading the official file). Additionally, the Day 1 quotes were 2 years after the mission and the Day 3 quote was 6.5 years after, making the later quote less likely to be accurate as so much time had passed. What does anyone else think?--Acer4666 (talk) 18:01, September 6, 2015 (UTC)